What comes after is earned.

Dave:
Well, welcome, everybody, to the brand Sweat and Tears podcast. I'm the host, Dave Oldham, and I am here with my guest, James Parker, who I'm excited to have with us today. He's got quite, uh, an interesting and very experienced background in consumer product. Good space. So I'll have him tell, you know, give you give a little intro right until a little bit about that story.

And what I think is really compelling, what I think is really interesting is after years and years and years of being in the corporate consumer goods with some big brands running some some notable, notable or known brands, he decided to make the leap into creating your own right. So this is going to be a fun story. I'm excited.

I'm looking forward to this. So with that, James, why don't you introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about your background and then we'll segway into the story.

Jamie:
Yeah, thanks for having me. So background is is pretty simple in that I started in finance actually. I spent four years there in finance. I got an opportunity to to move to Nike and just sort of weighing those different paths. I knew sort of the emotional connection I had to the brands like Nike. And so that was sort of a no brainer.

Dave:
What year was that?

Jamie:
It was I made that move in 2004.

Dave:
Okay. Okay.

And was Nike this is post like Michael Jordan?

Jamie:
It is, Yeah.

It's Nike at its grandest at that point. But I had worked in sort of the retail and consumer space within finance and banking and then the opportunity came up and moved out to Portland from the East Coast and spent 15 years there.

Dave:
Right. So did you go into finance at Nike?

Jamie:
No, I went into strategy.

Dave:
Okay.

Jamie:
Which is also a sort of a good landing spot for people who are coming from sort of nontraditional consumer products.

Dave:
Background strategy kind of straddles a lot of.

Jamie:
Yeah. So you're working with the executive team on basically two things how to run the Nike business. So it's sort of the quarterly processes and three year planning, you know, approach. But then you're you're working a lot on sort of new business models. So how to think about building a new category or a new consumer space to get into.

And so you use a lot of those sort of background of professional services, a lot of consultants, a lot of ex investment bankers type people who end up at Nike kind of helping do those types of things. But one of the great things about Nike is they sort of allow you to to move around. And so you're not anchored into you're the finance guy.

And so I actually ended up moving pretty directly like two years later into apparel and spent sort of five or six years in sort of the apparel space and then the sort of the back half of my Nike experience. So the last seven or eight years were spent mostly abroad, sort of bouncing around different countries, running different businesses.

It's really two very different experiences. I spent three years in England running our Manchester United business and my background is soccer football.

I spent three years in England running our Manchester United business and my background is soccer / football.

Dave:
Oh, awesome.

Jamie:
Global football. And so it's hard not to..

Dave:
I'm a Liverpool fan.

Jamie:
Okay, So yeah, we got something to talk about after the podcast. You know, working in the football space was just sort of boyhood dream type of thing in England. So that was really fun for a lot of reasons. Brazil was sort of the opposite in that totally different market, totally different consumer experience in terms of the maturity of the marketplace. But it was a country hosting the World Cup and the Olympics back to back. You know, it's a market with passion for yeah, sport in general. And then you get sort of the the benefits of of your job of traveling. And I started my family down in Brazil and sort of there was a different sort of stage of life that I was going through. And for that reason, it's it's super memorable and super special as well.

Dave:
So and you've got kids with like multiple passports?

Jamie:
Yeah, I think I think they're both set to expire soon. So I'll have to check whether they're still valid, but yeah the, but my daughter is technically I guess a Brazilian citizen. So yeah and so 15 years at Nike and that my wife there who I'm working on SMMT with now and and then moved to Utah moved to Park City to run a headphone company called Jaybird.

Dave:
I had a pair of Jaybirds.

Jamie:
Did you?

Dave:
Yeah.

Jamie:
Which was really nice. Kind of fun transition for me in that it really kept me in the sport health wellness space, which I love, but gave me an opportunity to learn tech and get into the hardware side of things. And so it just felt like a really nice opportunity to jump on. You saw Mountain Town Living combined with an awesome learning opportunity and growth opportunity, running this sort of boutique business that was really cool. So that's what brought me here.

Dave:
And when was that? When did you come to Utah?

Jamie:
I moved end of 2016, early 2017. We were sort of back and forth for a little while. But yeah, we've been here about six years I guess. Yeah.

Dave:
Okay, so Jaybird and then Summit. Summit? Yeah. This is new. This is pretty new, right?

Jamie:
Yeah. Well, we were talking about this. I think I'm 15 days into this, so yeah, it is brand new in terms of just launching, but we'll I'm sure we'll get into this but with most founders stories, this is something that has been happening for almost three years. But in terms of consumer knowing about it, yeah, it's been...

Dave:
Yeah, I think I reached out a couple of weeks after you kind of like said hey and publicly kind of yeah, Announcing this thing it's it's real but like you said you've you've been I know percolating probably isn't a good word. You've actually, you know actually been putting a lot of effort and energy thought into this for years.

So I want to start with like, why did you decide to do this? Why did you pick this specific category? What what compelled you to do it? Like, what was you know, you're an idea guy. You know, you, you you said, hey, I have, you know, got to sleep with ideas and just have tons of ideas. So why pick this particular one and tell us a little bit about what is SMMT and why SMMT?

Jamie:
Yeah, it's it's a really good question. I you know, every founder story is a little different. Um, I had started working on what is now SMMT as a product idea even before I thought about who I want to be as a brand or any of that, largely as a creative exercise. I was working on Jaybird, which I would say had a touch of a distressed context.

So I was working a lot of hours on a lot of sort of sort of deep business challenges that we were trying to solve. And I was I found myself thinking about I just need a creative outlet. I'm spending a lot of time on PNL and restructuring marketplace pieces and, you know, reworking and revamping product lines and all the foundational stuff to make a business healthy.

I just needed something.

Dave:
Purely creative, right?

Jamie:
Yeah, it was. It was very structured. And so, you know, my brain, I needed a little bit of that other side of the brain working. And so I started thinking about a problem that I was really kind of excited about, but I wasn't necessarily thinking about it as this incredible business opportunity. I was thinking about it more as this is something I can just sort of noodle on and think about when I have a little bit of spare time on the nights and weekends.

I grew up on the East Coast. I have this strange fascination with tote bags. I know that most folks that sort of live in outdoor centric marketplaces tend to think backpacks and other silhouettes. But I love the tote for for a couple of reasons. One, there's this sort of nostalgic connection I have being on the coast with my family, sort of this this bag that connected us to different places and people and things that were deeply meaningful to me in locations that have sort of a soft spot in my heart.

I grew up on the East Coast. I have this strange fascination with tote bags.

But I kept thinking like, why does everyone on the East Coast use this bag? Because it it's it's a really functional back. It's got a wide mouth. It's easy to throw a bunch of stuff in. It carries four towels, you know, it's all these things, but it's not used in my home now.

Dave:
When you were a kid, was it a specific brand?

Jamie:
It wasn't.

Dave:
that invented the perfect bag or there was a lot of these types of totes, but it was kind of an East Coast unique thing or it felt like that. Yeah, this is the Only place that people use these bags?

Jamie:
Yeah, it felt like that. It felt like that. So it wasn't brand specific. It was more around. The silhouette is really cool. When I started digging into it, it has over a hundred year history. It was designed as actually a carrier of ice. It was a ice bag, okay, to carry big blocks of ice. So it has this utilitarian, you know, origin story.

But I was like 90% of the products out there are these cotton based, you know, not water resistant, not stain resistant. Like it'd be really fun to mountaineers. Nice. This quote unquote. Right. That's not a word. But yeah, to to really build it for my hometown and use Park City as a muse for thinking about how to reimagine this, this, this product that I love.

And so I wasn't thinking about it from the lens of of a founder at that stage around, okay, what's the market size? And you know, how how much of these are really, you know sold.

And yeah. It was really a creative exercise and so.

Dave:
So you have have you used totes your whole life, your whole career or was this like there is this amazing back when I was a kid and then when I kind of grew up and left the house and stuff, I've never seen a bag like that. Haven't been able to use a bag like that. And I've been thinking like, why aren't these bags everywhere? Why aren't there more bags like this?

Jamie:
So I'm a user for sure.

Dave:
Your whole life?

Jamie:
My whole life. And I've just loved it because of its sort of design simplicity, right?

Dave:
It was hard to find good ones?

Jamie:
So it's not hard to find the original stuff which, which I felt like maybe we could evolve this a little bit. Okay, so, so the silhouette is available everywhere, including here.

But what I hadn't seen was something that felt like it lives up to powder days and mud season and, you know, really had sort of the finesse of thinking about redesigning it through that lens.

Jamie:
I was thinking about it in the use case of like moving from a trail run or from a day on the mountain to a barbecue at a friend's house. And, you know, thinking about that lifestyle that that we authentically live when we live close to the mountains. And how can we really evolve this this product that I have this passion for and to kind of a new space.

And so it was really more of a design problem. I saw this this bag that I love or silhouette that I love, and this opportunity to kind of think through the design language for a modern day sort of mountain experience and so I was using it for that, just I was drawing and designing and creating just a sort of an outlet.

And, you know, as, as contexts change and as things move on and as you get more passionate about what you're solving for,

Dave:
How did you. It's an idea in your head. How do you go from idea to actually start building a real product? Did you start just getting materials and start sewing it yourself or, you know, I mean, you've had a lot of experience in CPG and stuff. So how does how do you take this from an idea or even like a sketch on paper until I start bringing it to life?

Jamie:
Yeah, It's a good question. And I thought about this a lot because consumer products, as you know, is not an easy place to start a business. But I was pretty I've had a lot of ideas. I was pretty adamant that I should stay in my lane, that I should stay, stick with some things that I'm reasonably familiar with.

I thought about this a lot because consumer products, as you know, is not an easy place to start a business. But I had a lot of ideas. I was pretty adamant that I should stay in my lane, stick with some things that I'm reasonably familiar with.

And so the construction of apparel and bags is a little more familiar to me than Sass or, you know, doing something in the tech space. And so I came at it from I already kind of know a lot of the foundational design and development stuff that needs to be done to kind of bring this to life. And, you know, when you start something in a space that, you know, your network by design generally is a little more helpful.

Dave:
And so you already have, you know, you had connections in like, yeah, just X materials and even like seamstress, you know, like putting this thing together. You knew how to get a prototype put together.

Jamie:
Yeah. And so, like when I started to work on this, yes, there was a little bit of like, pull in materials and like, I wasn't designing full bags or constructing full bag some in my house or my office, but I was looking at pieces of the design equation that I wanted to do and playing with that, you'll you'll see with the bag, it's it's actually a lofted bag.

So there's insulation in between two layers, which you don't see a whole lot of in the, in the, in the bag industry in general. But, but definitely in totes. That was one of the things that I was trying to design for. I thought there was a really cool way of tapping into sort of this old lofted jacket kind of concept of comfort and familiarity in the mountains that would be for lightweight design and for sort of comfort underarm.

It actually has this third benefit, which we don't really market, but it also ends up insulating. So it is sort of a functional cooler bag for a couple of hours. It's it's certainly not built for three days. PRICE Yeah, a nice block put in there and it does will keep something cool as well But yeah I just by starting it and sort of tinkering with it, I was actually at a dinner party with some friends on my street and, and they all came from the same industry and they were like, Oh, you've got to talk to so-and-so.

He's a developer, ex North Face for 20 plus years. He'd be great to help you sort of figure out the manufacturing and sourcing side of things. And you know, I was already far enough along that he wasn't starting from scratch. And so it was a lot of those network connections that led me to going from I'm doodling in a notebook to having sort of prototypes made.

Dave:
Okay.

Jamie:
With with partners that really understood that level of construction, sort of know Outdoor, you know, bag construction.

Dave:
So so you reach out to these connections and they like, Hey, yeah, I can get access to our equipment like after hours or are they like, well, you know, you've got to you have to come up with some money and say, well, you know, run, run through this like prototyping process. How did you do it? Did you have to do like skunkworks?

Are you just kind of like official like, okay, I'll I'll come up with like 20 grand or whatever. Yeah, like let's make a couple of bags. Yeah. Yeah. Or five.

Jamie:
I would put us more on the official end of the spectrum. We were sort of prototyping. Any startup is not fully official. You're doing things under minimums and you know, you're figuring out ways of of being scrappy in that process. But I was working with partners that work with much bigger brands and do help a few smaller brands along the way.

And that's where connections also really help. There's a little bit more trust, there's a little less cash upfront in that process when they they've worked with these people for years and years and.

Dave:
So name and, and either through a connection of someone that they trust they've introduced you Yeah. Background and kind of like hey this.

Jamie:
You get a little help along the way but you know it was one of those processes partially I was doing it part time for a long time or nights and weekends and partially I I'm product obsessed, so I really wanted to launch with something that really met sort of the brief that I had started with. I think we went through seven or eight prototype and almost three years before we were ready to go to market.

Dave:
This time seven or eight prototypes kind of ask how much money of your own money did you put into that to come up with seven or eight prototypes?

Jamie:
More than Michelle would would be happy with. We probably put in 50 to 75 K in the product process over three years. The pros and cons of of doing something as an idea when you're you're at sort of your nights and weekends side hustle when you're working a full time job is it's a lot harder to move fast, which is one of the pain points of of the summit journey is man it took a long time to get to market.

The nice thing was I was spending and time as money as a startup, right? Because you're paying a developer as a monthly engagement or working with a factory and doing six or seven or eight prototypes. The more time you take, the more money is going out the door.

The the I guess the, the ying to that yang is I actually was working full time. And so I actually had a salary coming in. And so that sort of helped offset it a little bit.

Dave:
Right.

Jamie:
And I don't you know, as I think about it, as as founders ask me, there's pros and cons and you have to make your own choices on and things like that. I certainly wish I had made a decision to move faster, but I'm not sure I would have left a great career that early or I don't know if I was mentally ready to do that.

It took me some of that journey to to make that pivot, to go, You know what? I really want to do this fulltime.

Dave:
Okay, That kind of skips ahead to like the ending part, but we don't have to go to a specific order. Definitely want to get into that. Is the tiers part of this like brands sweat and tears is like the emotional and mental journey. So for years and years and years you'd had this, you know, I mean, as stable as a corporate job is like, you know, and maybe we can even get into this whole discussion about like our corporate jobs actually any more stable than not.

But yeah, at least the feeling of got the stable career and you were you were at Nike for 14, 15, 14 years. Yeah. So you know you in Nike's this big profitable you know behemoth kind of a company the likelihood of you just suddenly losing your job was lower than at least the risk factor of like jumping into a startup.

Jaybird was maybe a more risky play because this is a company that's like, hey, you know, there are some challenges here that we're trying to figure things out. It's I want to call it a fixer upper. But there were definitely these logistical challenges that you faced. Did you feel like that was more risky than Nike or have you gone through like stages of amping up the risk that maybe STAIR stepped you towards? Like, okay, I did that and now I'm ready to kind of take the full leap and go myself.

Jamie:
Actually I had never thought about it that way, but I think it's super accurate in that Nike and Portland, a lot of our journey there felt very stable. You know, we took a bunch of jobs abroad, which I think, you know, helps in terms of, hey, this, this guy's a company guy. He's really he's willing to do some challenging assignments and move for us and all that stuff. So we never felt significant risk. There's always some risk, but there's also personal factors around how you sort of perceive risk and stability. Michelle's family's from Portland. You know, we had been there for years and years so we could speak the language of Nike and so, you know, for a lot of reasons, it felt reasonably secure.

Jaybird you know, we were moving to a place where neither of us have have family. The business was it was much smaller than Nike. That alone sort of creates some level of instability in comparison. And yeah, it had some it had some things that we had to solve. And so those those definitely make you go, you know what? Where is this in ten years? And so I never felt deep degrees of instability there, but it certainly was sort of a level or two up in terms of the risk Risk quotient.

And probably got me more comfortable with it. But I also think family stage and you know, where you are and sort of your journey with your partner and and how old your kids are and financial stability and how you feel about that because it's relative for everybody. All those things weigh in, too. And, you know, we were talking about this earlier, but like, there's really no perfect time to take the risk of starting your own business because everything everything's kind of on the line. And so, like, I got to the place where it's like, this is as good a time as any.

Dave:
Yeah.

Jamie:
And so I think that mindset shift probably happened over that journey. And by being a little closer to risk over a period of time, probably helped me get there.

Dave:
Yeah. I want to ask you, you and I are similar age. I'm a little older, but similar age. Was there even a part of that? That was if I don't do it now, I'll never do it. Did you start feeling the pressure of like, okay, I've got and probably have this notebook full of ideas like, this is the only idea.

Jamie:
Multiple notebooks.

Dave:
Okay. Multiple notebooks of ideas.

Jamie:
Yeah.

Dave:
And you're did you reach this critical point in your mental kind of I don't know what the right point, but. But did you get to this point where you and even you know you and Michelle talking about this, are you happy? You know, how are things you know, you know, where are we going to be in five years or are we just going to do corporate stuff forever?

Like what does the future look like? Did you get to this point or have this conversation where if I don't do this now, I'll never do it?

Like what does the future look like? Did you get to this point or have this conversation where if I don't do this now, I'll never do it?

Jamie:
Yeah, we did. I you know, I think every every person who's sort of in a startup or founding stage has those conversations. You need to have those conversations if you're not having them, but just...

Dave:
Different than if we were like, you know, when I was 20, 21, for sure too, It was like, why the hell not? Like for sure I do it. I've got nothing to lose. I could always live with my parents basement with ramen and, you know, whatever. Like you got exactly nothing to lose. But once you have a spouse, a partner.

Jamie:
Exactly.

Dave:
Kids. And you've had this long, you know, very successful, stable career, you know, again, stable and air quotes, but stable career to think like, okay, I'm going to take this huge leap and do this thing. It's it's a pretty big mental. It's a leap.

Jamie:
Yeah. And I think some of the people that I was having that conversation with where my decisions impact them, like my wife Michelle, some of my family members, who are you know, a big part of why I've done this and why I can be here. They were all at that stage, too. Like Jamie, you've been talking about this for 20 years.

Like, if you're not going to do it now, what are you going to do it? And so I think that support that those trusted sort of ecosystem around me or people around me were also saying that they were they were that supportive where it was like, why wouldn't you do this? Like, why wouldn't you take that shot now?

And there was a little bit because you were sort of implying like, if you don't do this, you're never going to do this. And I am sort of at an age where it's like, it gets harder. Yeah, right. Like you're sort of at an inflection point. It's really hard when you have a young family and or you don't have the financial means to maybe take a little bit of time to take the risk.

And then you kind of hit the other side and it's like, do you really want to be grinding, you know, 80 hours on your own thing at whatever? Fast forward 20 years from now. And so it was sort of like this. You know, I'm getting that feedback. I'm sort of feeling it like it feels like the right, right time to do it.

But as I said, like, there's no perfect time, right? You will always find an excuse not to do it. You just got to sometimes just take the plunge, Just go and go out after it.

Dave:
Yeah, well, it's fascinating and it's really cool to hear you say, because I guarantee, you know, as as I have more and more guests on here. I know, you know, I've got like the next 30 or 40 guests lined up in a lot of these. I've known personally for a long time. I know their stories are quite different in the sense that everyone was saying, you are crazy, what you doing?

Go do it. And in extreme cases, we'll see if some of these stories, how deep we can get into some of these stories. But some of these stories are like it's an ultimatum between it's me or your startup. Yeah, in a relationship kind of scenario. And so those are are really big challenges. You know, you have to choose between chasing this dream, chasing this passion.

And so the cool thing, the awesome thing it sounds like in your scenario was you had people actually pushing you, no doubt.

Jamie:
No doubt.

Dave:
If you don't do this like you're crazy. Yeah, you've been talking about this forever. You got to do this thing. Sounds like Michelle is super supportive. Yeah, you have to do it. You should do it. Let's do it.

Jamie:
Yeah. It needed to be sort of the family unit together on it. It just wouldn't have worked for me and if I were put into that type of ultimatum, the family comes first on that one for me. Yeah. So would probably wouldn't happen. Every founder meets some of those like people who are challenged. The idea that you should you should go through that because if you can't fight through that one, then it's going to be really hard the rest Of the way. Yeah, well, I'm not picking there.

Dave:
Yeah. Did you feel like you were getting honest feedback as the prototype? You know, not just on the idea too, but like. Or were you worried that, like, everyone loves you so much and they're so supportive, they're going to tell you this bag is awesome, even if it sucks? Or like, who is giving you honest feedback? Yeah, like, Oh, I hate this, I don't like this.

Jamie:
I had plenty of folks in my community giving me honest feedback. It felt even. But I almost think sometimes I take the point of view of like if I'm getting really good feedback, I'm like sort of discounting it a little bit. Like I think that's more of a founder's nature is like, I got to make sure I'm challenging this thing a lot.

So it's awesome to get support, but you're also kind of going Is that genuine support or do they just love me, you know, and want me to be successful?

Dave:
Well, I Think that perspective may come with age, though.

Jamie:
At least essentially.

Dave:
Personally, when I was younger, I looked for, but I was heavily biased towards confirmation. You know, I had that confirmation bias. Yeah. I was looking for feedback that reinforced my Belief in the Thing that I was doing rather than maybe having enough perspective and or thick enough skin to like, I want somebody to tell me my baby's ugly because that's going to help me and I'm going to, you know, really have to think through it. In fact, sometimes when I was confronted by that, I was thinking, Well, they just don't understand. They don't see the vision or whatever. And there's a little bit of that naivete maybe that's helpful in like, you don't get discouraged and don't just quit the first time somebody says, That sucks. But I think I definitely, in retrospect, I think I, I didn't take into consideration or even look for opportunities to really, really challenge my idea.

Jamie:
And I yeah, I mean, I, I think the I don't know where that comes from for me, whether it came with, with maturation or if it's just sort of embedded in my DNA. But I think I know enough founders story is that I knew I needed to challenge it and frankly, like I could challenge it pretty easily myself.

If anything, I can play that role pretty well. You know, we were talking about it when we were getting introduced, like, this is a tough space. Yeah, right. Like, there are way, way more successful startup industries than consumer products. Right? And we all know sort of the metrics of success.

Dave:
You know if you start mountain-afying it or outdoors-afying or whatever, there's so many options, right, from the different types of backpacks. And there's actually Ogio and Nomadic, which are bag brands that are here.

You start mountain-afying or outdoors-afying a tote bag

Jamie:
Totally.

Dave:
Originated in Utah. And there's yeah, there's a lot there's it's a really crowded space. So as you're thinking through that.

Jamie:
And black diamond country. Yeah yes even the whole Yeah, yeah yeah.

Dave:
Oh so how, what was the mental process of like hey I've, this is a bit of an amazing creative outlet. I'm really passionate about this. I even have an emotional attachment from my youth to this. I'm excited about this. But then you got to get really pragmatic about the business, the viability of the business. What was your thought process about?

How do you start to carve out? And I know we're we're early in this, but like, yeah, who's your game plan to carve out your unique space? How does Summit stand out from all these other.

Jamie:
Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to potentially put you in a bad spot because I'm going to talk a little brand and a little some of the other stuff that we are bouncing around on.

So a couple of things. So my background is actually apparel and so it was a little bit of a departure from even my background, a lot more similar than tech or something else. But one of the things that I said was, I'm not going to do apparel first. So there was just the pragmatism around apparel is multi gender 5 to 6 size, you know, depending on your size range for your brand, the inventory investment is massive.

So there was a pragmatic decision around, yeah, I really know this space. I'm I'm going to either delay it or not do it.

Dave:
Yeah well the advantage of Knowing the space as well.

Jamie:
Yeah. Is I knew the challenges, the challenge there.

Dave:
Yeah. Many different options. And you know, even launching one model, you're still talking about colors and sizes, you know, there's all of that stuff. So your experience was probably very valuable in saying, I'm not going to go in this naively and think I could just kind of come up with a new shirt. Yeah, or a new pair of shorts or whatever.

Dave:
So then you move towards Bags.

Jamie:
And what I call mountain accessories. And what I liked about it is my creative outlet and sort of where I saw a design or a consumer, you know, challenge and opportunity was I'm picking a silhouette that no brands do in the outdoor space, which is tote bags. Right? So yes, if you include beach, you know, it's sort of coastal lifestyle stuff.

Dave:
Which some of the cooler brands like Yeti and Have gotten into sort of as I'm Kind of doing like the beach tote the the heavy duty you know insulated beach totes and stuff for it.

Jamie:
Yeah there are few, but very few. That's their core business and they're obsessed with that silhouette.

Yeah. They started with coolers and Drinkware Patagonia and, you know, North Face. And so they they all may have a tote in the line. It's not, it's not the thing they are thinking about day in and day out, right? They're thinking about their, their top of the line jackets and outerwear and stuff like that first. So that made me feel a little more comfortable was like, I'm not picking, I'm picking a slightly more niche silhouette and doing something kind of unique and interesting that feels like it really hasn't been done.

And so in the sea of, yes, this is a huge market in bags. There's thousands of brands globally more. I've got sort of this nice niche that really ties into my my history, my sort of the origin story of of Jamie and Michelle, but but also sort of our background and what we know how to do. And then it got into sort of the the elements of what I was doing in the design that made it feel different.

Jamie:
Like this is a lofted tote bag which there are very few, if any, out there today, which was a design cue from the mountains around Our favorite lofted jackets are often our most go to piece because they're they're amazing as a middle layer for the mountain as we're skiing, they're awesome for the outdoor concert. They stow really easily.

They pack really easily.

Dave:
Just jam them into your pocket.

Jamie:
Yeah, exactly. And so a lot of us have this sort of like reference point of this this amazing sort of thing. And it may not be the coolest or, you know, the most expensive, but it's it's something that just plays a huge role in sort of our emotional connection to outdoor gear. And I was taking the inspiration from that and saying it's actually really cool to think about that through the lens of a bag because that it's lightweight, it's comfortable, and it has this esthetic cue that sort of says this is more mountain than it is sort of canvas.

Yeah, East Coast, which is where I come from. And so we we I felt like I had a niche in this ocean that felt uniquely ours and and a little bit more protected than just another backpack out there.

Dave:
That's okay. So you you've mentioned that you know these other brands they're not obsessed with this when you talk about that obsession and this attention to detail, maybe talk me through a little bit of some more of the details that's lofted bag. But like what what makes this bag unique and then tie that back to like, what is the story that you're going to tell?

And, you know, this is one of the first this is probably the first podcast you've been on talking about. Yes.

What is the story that you want people to know and what attention to detail have you passionately been focused on that you want them to appreciate it, to notice, you know what's going to be amazing about this bag when they look at it, when they feel it, when they touch it, besides the key, this is a mountain specific bag.

This is a mountain specific tote bag

Jamie:
So I'll talk about product sort of stuff, features first and then talk a little bit about the brand and sort of what some it stands for and some of the things that I was really passionate about when I was thinking about building a brand around this, this creative idea on the product side, when you when you have the backdrop of Park City or just the Utah, the Wasatch Back, you know, etc., as sort of the muse, it really sort of allows you to think about all the different elements to make a bag feel like it lives up to our environment.

So we've got waterproof shells on the outside and the inside, so the exterior and the interior that would be worthy of of an elite jacket. Right. And so the idea was if I build something that people are going to use here, it's got to it's got a handle, a powder day and be set down in in a wet parking lot water, It's got to handle mud season, so it's got to be easily washable.

And so a lot of the concepts around how you build sort of a premium jacket sort of went into this bag. So it's water, water resistant in construction. It's not seen sealed. And a lot of that was just are we are we creating overkill? And on a product just priced way too high for what we need. And so it holds up to a lot of that sort of weather and environment.

Muse We did a lot to think about organization, so most totes you'll find, have no organization whatsoever. And that's part of the beautiful simplicity, the tote bag. It's just a big everything in a big shell.

And you can kind of dump everything in there. That was another piece that we felt like we could do a lot better. As you're thinking about those transition moments in Mountain Lifestyle, from a morning skiing to maybe a stop at work to a friend's barbecue to a Deer Valley concert, or to all those different things. How do we start to think about the Interior Organization to really make it a little bit more functional and useful than what people find on the market today?

And so that was a big piece of it. I think the third thing was we really want to be considered design and this will lead a little bit into the brand and what we want Summit to known for. But we were we wanted to be really thoughtful. We call it considered design, but we wanted to be really thoughtful.

Now there are no brands that I can think of that are perfect on the sustainability front, on the soul front, you know what they stand for. But it was really important to us. There are a lot of brands out there we want to have a deep sense of values, and so it is all recycled materials. We use a blue sign manufacturing partner, which means they do a lot of stuff in terms of environmentally friendly dyes to using power from solar for their production facilities.

That is just a lot more thoughtful than the average partner you can find out there.

Dave:
And then not just looking for the cheapest way to get this bag.

Jamie:
No. This is definitely not the cheapest way to get this bag built. It's it's a lot more thoughtful and it impacts the cost and the price.

And then we give back locally. So through 1% for the planet, we give back to some at Land Conservancy. And so it sort of gets into our our brand positioning and sort of our values Summit really stands for three things. First of all, like Summit is sort of pursuing aspirational lifestyle, the peaks of lifestyle. And that's what we want for people is to people to really enjoy life.

SMMT stands for Summit County or as a reference to our home county, and then SMMT stands for Sustainable Mountain Marine Travel. And that's really our brief as we build product.

SMMT = Sustainable Mountain Marine Travel

Dave:
Like they don't see this until, you know, maybe they're looking at it when we write this down. But the brand is spelled S-M-M-T?

Jamie:
Yes.

Dave:
Okay, so that was an acronym.

Jamie:
Sustainable Mountain Marine Travel. And really the idea was let's build things considered. We're not perfect again, but we are trying to do things that are a lot more thoughtfully designed for our environment, for how we produce it, etc., than the average brand Mountain Marine was. Hey, a lot of our narrative is around Park City and where we come from, but Michelle and I have come from the from the opposite coasts.

And so our background is more beach and coastal outdoors. And now we've found our family, our lives in the mountains. And so we are deeply passionate about being outdoors. We love the idea of using park cities amuse. And so the mountains sort of aspect of the of the brand is sort of the primary one. But when we build things for the mountain, it works really, really well for every other outdoor space, including the coast.

And that's where the sort of the mountain and marine comes from. And then travel is the time in between. And a lot of Michelle my journey has been about travel. We've lived in multiple countries and have bounced around the U.S. a little bit. And so we wanted to live or build products that live up to sort of that brief that that lifestyle that we've had in our lives.

That means it has to be a little bit more durable, a little bit more timeless, and designed to kind of live up to that brief. And so for us, that that acronym really helps make sure that the products we produce are kind of living up to that.

Dave:
That's awesome.

Jamie:
Yeah. And then we have four values that are deeply important. So when Michelle and I were talking about Summit at the beginning, and it became less of Jaime's creative product exercise and more of let's really build something that's meaningful to Park City to Utah and to people who love the mountains. We had a lot of background around what we wanted it to be.

And you know, Michelle and I both coming from Nike, we both really feel responsible for creating a brand that has some meaning and that can create some an emotional connection with the consumer. And so we've got sort of four pillars that we think about that really anchor what we want to do and our point of view on a brand in in the marketplace.

And so our positioning is what comes after is earned. So the vast majority of outdoor brands sort of focus on the activity, the on mountain piece, sort of what you're doing for your outlet, whether it's skiing or mountain biking or whatever it is. What we found really interesting around living in Park City is we love the outdoors. That's sort of our background too.

At Nike doing active, you know, amazing days outdoors is sort of our bread and butter. But there's a there's a yin to that yang around the lifestyle that we think is so important, which is the moments after that when you get to spend a night with your family barbecuing after a great day, you know, on a mountain bike or, you know, for some people it's the opera experience with friends when they're traveling after a day of skiing, you know, there's all these equivalents around how you sort of reflect on that day, who you spend it with.

Dave:
And this is the you said what comes after is earned.

Jamie:
Yeah. And so we are nodding to we all love the outdoors. We all love spending a day active. Yeah, but there's this other piece to our lifestyle that we need to shine the light on and and that that makes us more of a lifestyle brand in that we're not trying to solve backcountry. Right. This toe can handle a lot.

Yeah, but it's not built for that. It's really built for your everyday use case. Sort of inspired by the lifestyle of living around this beautiful environment and being active is just as important. And those moments of connection with people is just as important. Yeah, and it's the combination of those two things that really makes our lifestyle so special.

And so that's, that's sort of how we come at it, which feels a little unique to most outdoor brands.

Dave:
Well, that's amazing. And ironically, uh, I don't know if this is irony, but interestingly enough, this, this morning I was listen to a podcast hosted by my friend Jepsen Taylor. He's a he's one of the most incredible, outdoorsy guys. He's he's the guy who, like, you know, gets up at 3 a.m. and hikes to the top backcountry on a split board and then, you know, gets these amazing shots and Josh Powell and and he's he's an a very talented, very experienced outdoorsman and he was talking on his podcast about the difference between type 1 fun and type 2 fun and how he described It's the first I'd heard this concept, but it makes sense.

Is this type 2 fun? Is it might the activity itself, the thing that doing might be actually incredibly painful? Yeah, very difficult. And not what anyone even, you know, the extremists would call fun in the moment, but the fun actually comes afterward in the shared experiences. Yeah. Friends, the stories, the adventures, the myths and legends that come from these things and the just the shared moments of shared accomplishment with friends and family and afterwards.

And, you know, he even does some stuff solo and he's like, it's still that after effect kind of thing is fun.

Like, what comes after is earned...

Jamie:
Well, it's another take on that sort of tier 2 fun and yeah you know that that insight if like once we sort of grasp that's what really makes why we love Park City so much. What really we grasped was the lifestyle that we were endeared to was both of those things. It wasn't just this, it was also the moments afterwards.

Once we sort of locked into that, we realized like that really kind of transpires sport, whether it's skiing and “apres” or golf and the “19th hole” or, you know, whatever. We felt like there was this analogy for all of it. There's no real word for it for a lot of the sort of lifestyles, you know, boating, etc. But in each one of those, there was sort of mindset of we love these activities.

It also comes with these shared moments afterwards that are really important, whether you're breaking bread and sharing meals or whatever. And so sort of really zeroing in on that, we felt like we could find some new space. And so our bags are all designed, you know, our water bottles, you know, insulated so you can bring food over to a friend's house.

They had all these sort of secondary feature sets that that sort of made sense in that lifestyle.

Dave:
So maybe we gloss over a little too much and maybe you're going to show the bag... Did you bring a bag?

Jamie:
I do. I have a bag for which we can.

Dave:
Get this on camera or something, but you're talking about the Interior Organization and how it plays into this value of what comes after is earned is the thoughtfulness that went into okay. It's not just about the activity that you're doing, but a pre ski. You know, it's the after moment. It's like we've got to put cheese and wine and other stuff we can't throw everything in this bag, right?

So, so I mean, how did you organize the interior? Like what specific things about it play into that core value.

Jamie:
Yeah. Well we start like starting from the basics. Like the interior lining is waterproof for that. Like if you're putting whether it's hydration or you're putting in a wine bottle or whatever your choice of it, it can handle sweat and other things because we actually use an exterior shell fabric that you'd find in a nice jacket on the inside, which is very rare for four bags.

That's usually where you find the cost choices.

We didn't do that. And so we have actually two hydration sort of pockets that magnetically snap to the side. So they get out of your way when you're not using them, but they kind of pop out and stretch when you are using them. That can hold a 40 ounce water bottle or or obviously a wine bottle or something like that.

Yeah. So it allows you to store multiple of those things in the bag without those floating around. Yeah. And then we've got mesh pockets, so smaller items easy to stow, stays sort of hook to the side. We've got a waterproof pocket inside. So I think about this a lot when I transition to the East Coast and I'm on a boat, I'm putting my wallet, my keys in there because it has sort of just an additional extra protection from from the elements, salt water, etc.

And then we've got even a media pocket. So, you know, a protected small computer iPad that hugs the side, that is obviously gets the natural benefit of the loft. So we have extra protection for that stuff, but also makes that bag versatile for traveling and sort of connecting between these different outdoor places. That idea likely we'd love to spend time.

And so it's sort of designed to be able to live up to that mountain, that coast and the travel in between and has sort of the pocket free to bring those moments after to life.

Dave:
Okay. Yeah. I feel like you said, I can kind of see her. I feel like you should put the bag up here.

Jamie:
You want the small one or the big one?

Dave:
I don't know. Let's look at them both. I think we can bring them up. And, you know, for those who aren't looking at some camera, Wolf, to describe a little bit, but I'm so curious to see what we've got.

Jamie:
Like everything in it so I can kind of maybe even use it for that.

Dave:
Okay. So I'm seeing the lofted cool exterior pockets the way this interior zipper kind of pops up on.

Jamie:
Yeah. So which camera you want to use This one.

Dave:
I think. Well, yeah. I mean, it'll probably get from both angles. We'll see how this. Try not to hit the mike here. Okay? Yeah. It's a big interior with multiple pockets. I can see zipper pockets. I can see like some, uh, here's, like, for the drink.

Jamie:
Yep. Yeah So hydration pockets on both sides. And as we said, that magnetically kind of snaps in. So it kind of pulls out of your way when you're not using it. We've got a computer sleeve on one side so you can see sort of I've, I've got it tucked away with the laptop and then, you know, I've got, I don't know, three or four notebooks and a calendar and you know, just sort of the stuff in it.

Dave:
So is this the small one?

Jamie:
This is the small one, yeah. All right.

Dave:
And then we got the big one for big gear.

Jamie:
Yeah. And then we've got the front pocket, which obviously waterproof fabric, water resistant construction. So you're on the mountain and you put your your phone or I've got my keys in there and I've got a headphone in there. You know something else in there. Yeah. It's big enough to kind of stow that stuff and sort of related to the brand story, um, you know, all of our products have sort of these, these features that help the narrative as well.

And so this is our brand color, I call it PC Sunset, but it's really inspired by those moments after. So a lot of times when we're gathering and sort of, you know, thinking through the turns of the day, like the ski turns or going through sort of a round of golf with my brother or whatever, yeah, you get those sort of pinkish hues on the sunset and you're just like, we just had an awesome day.

Jamie:
Now we're talking about it having a, you know, a meal afterwards. And that sunset, which my daughter calls cotton candy Sky, is sort of that like symbol for us. It's like that's sort of that moment in time where you're reflecting on how awesome Our Life can be and how magical living in a place like this can be. And so we actually have those brand colors sort of, you know, in small details throughout the bag. And then there is a patch on the inside that does mention what comes after is earned.

What comes after is earned

Dave:
Well, that's cool.

Jamie:
And it's just meant to be that reminder, which is like you're earning it every day. Life's not always easy. We all know that. But there are these moments where you're like, Gosh, this is pretty good. And so I want to make sure our bags remind people of that.

Dave:
This this on the court. The colors are cool, the logo is cool. I can see how even the the Marine mountain.

Jamie:
Yeah. So there's a lot of meaning there. Yeah. Just in that little logo.

Dave:
Is is it a hard bottom? So like the bag will stand up.

Jamie:
Yes. Yeah. So it has a lot of shape and that was a big part of the design was.

Dave:
How do you do a lofted tote that doesn't just flop over when you say.

Speaker 2
Exactly and that's why we were a I said when when we got to the finish line.

Jamie:
The construction for tote is not simple. Yeah. So totes generally are a pretty simple design. So this has, you know, because we wanted the interior and exterior to be pretty burly.

So we obviously were building with insulation in between and then we use a little bit of recycled foam to create some of that structure. And so that combination gets you sort of the structure plus a little bit of that insulation and yeah, and I'm a I'm just finessed, I just, I geek out about shape and so I really wanted to bag that.

When you're using it, it stands for you. It you know, you're not trying to figure out how to get stuff in it. And so we want to make it as easy as possible for that. And that was a part of the loft design.

Dave:
Very cool. I love it. And so the bigger one, it's the same. Is it just a bigger version of this or.

Jamie:
Yeah, there's, there's small tweaks in the pocket design and stuff like that, but largely You're getting the same thing.
Just with a slightly different layout.

Dave:
Nice. I love these colors of blue with the pink too. Is the blue. You're part of your brand colorway.

Jamie:
Yeah we so we Have blue and what we call forest black. So this is Jordan El Blue, the one we're looking at now and then.

Dave:
For the reservoir and their park City.

Jamie:
Yeah. And also our beach front in the summer. But the Forest black has these sort of hints of green in them. So depending on the light you're in, it either looks black or it looks a little bit like a deep hunter. Green That's cool. So we really love that. Yeah. What we'll do in terms of color, we'll continue to go to a more muted, saturated view.

I think there's a lot of primary colors in the outdoor world and landscape and a lot of pop colors. We're going to go as mature as possible and really look at sort of saturated colors. So this is probably the brightest bag you'll see from us and we'll probably get more muted as as we go. We also are for the start again, we're not carrying all The Colors.

Dave:
Like you were talking about. We're not doing too many SKUs.

Jamie:
Most of our colors are going to be black, blue or green to start. And you can guess why, but there's obviously a little bit of storytelling element associated with those colors and being next to a mountain. Yeah.

Dave:
So awesome.

Beautiful bags. Okay, so for people who are listening, uh, where and when can they get their hands on some of these bags?

Jamie:
Yeah.

Dave:
So you ready to start selling these from your website?

Jamie:
We are. We're. We're in week two of selling.

And the best place right now is www.smmtoudoor.com - Which is our humble but beautiful little website and primary storefront. It's also where you can get a lot more of the storytelling of of SMMT and sort of what the brand stands for. And then we're actually in conversations with some local retailers right now.

And so the website is actually a great place. We do have a Stockists section on our website, so as we start selling with retailers and partnering with local retailers, we'll we'll update our website with that as well.
A big part. You know, we want to go to the community.

It's kind of omnichannel.

Dave:
Okay.

Jamie:
Yeah. I think it's really important. Obviously you're your background in digital marketing and my background sort of with brands, I think we're seeing sort of an interesting time, right? We went heavy digital.

Dave:
Yeah.

Jamie:
As a world in sort of the consumer brand space for a decade plus or minus.

Dave:
Maybe even accentuated for a bit with the pandemic.

Jamie:
I Love being a student of this stuff like for all the right reasons, like the, the data that was available, you know, Nike 25 years ago, it was all gut feel.

All of our marketing, There was no real measurement of, you know, ROI or, the cost of acquisition or, you know, yeah.

It Was real art.

Dave:
And then loops through traditional retail or just so long and slow VR.

Jamie:
And even with the power of, of Nike, you know, it was a decade journey to get weekly sell through and things like that. Yeah. And then, you know, obviously in the last ten years with sort of the advancements of everything from Shopify to the tools for social marketing to, you know, all that stuff, it just made a lot of sense to build your brand and your community through a digital marketplace and through digital tools.

And now what we're seeing sort of that pendulum again swinging and because of privacy and costs of acquisitions rising and all that stuff.

Dave:
Yeah.

Jamie:
What's really fun is, as I think about it from an entrepreneurial standpoint, it's like there's a lot of throwback marketing stuff that I'm pretty excited about, you know, grassroots marketing. And I think of like Vineyard Vines. For those who've been to Martha's Vineyard when they were starting up, it was only in the Vineyard. They also had a very geographic centric narrative.

Dave:
It was like stickers. The little whale, right? With the little whale. Yeah, Yeah.

Jamie:
But like they were on the harbor master's boat with a big sticker and they were on the launch boat, which is like the boat that people take out to their boats from town. And it was like all these little guerilla grassroots tools, but they were like, just cool waves of people being like, What's that?

And, and honestly, I think even retail is really important. We're seeing that swing back to omni channel strategies because of some of the digital stuff we're talking about. And I'm so glad because like the local retailer is so important in, in telling your story and being able to share what your brand actually stands for. And so it's a big part of our strategy is, is having those connections because it really is a community brand and we want to be a part of that ecosystem.

Dave:
Cool. So you mentioned four values. I think we talked about one. Yeah. Let's talk about let's end on what are the other three values. Yeah, that's a good place to kind of wrap things up.

Jamie:
Yeah. So our, our product positioning or sort of our product ethos is a value which is basically mountain accessories for an elevated mountain lifestyle. It's it's how do we build really high quality products. And so our design.

Mountain accessories for an elevated mountain lifestyle

Dave:
Like three Fold meanings to the word elevated.

Jamie:
We don't share this anywhere sort of externally with the consumer. But the way we think about product creation is mountain utility and timeless design. And so when you think about my own utility, it's like it has to live up to our environment. Yeah, because when we do that, then it works great for L.A. or Chicago or New York or whatever else.

Dave:
But under the Harshest conditions. Let's take it to work everywhere else.

Jamie:
Exactly. And so that mountain utility, everything from how we think about organization to the environmental protection, you know, waterproof or water resistant, all of those things have has to be a filter of how we build our products. And it has to define us as a brand. Why do we do that? We have to make beautiful product. We are really focused on.

The reason why we call it timeless design is we're never going to be a brand that chases fashion, something that is in style right now.

We want to use colors.

Dave:
We've got a Nike, I'm sure, over 14 years. Yeah, we have colors.

Jamie:
And when you're that size, you're you have four seasons, right? You have you're launching products four times a year.

And so you get into what are, what are the colors that are trending right now. And it's a real art for us because we build products that will last pretty much a lifetime. You know, we're not a brand oriented around trying to sell a bag to the same person a year later, right where you have it for decades, right.

And that's that's the main utility piece with Timeless design. We really want to find sort of a way of crafting and creating esthetics that you're going to pick up five years from now and still like. Yeah, right. And so that's really our goal. And those two things really help us get to that elevated mountain accessories positioning. So quality accessories of a mountain, elevated mountain lifestyle, it's really those two things behind the curtain that that get us there.

We have a community pillar which we call Kosselig. Kosselig is a Norwegian term.

Dave:
I don't think I've heard it.

Jamie:
The most direct translation is something like Cozy.

Dave:
Oh wait, I think I have. Somebody who was trying to explain this word. I can't remember the context of it. I'll have to think about that. Okay. Yeah, Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, but there's not a perfect exact translation.

Jamie:
No, So you have to use cozy.

What's what's really cool is like the word cozy, particularly for a product person. You start to think about tactile experiences, like A soft blanket or something. Yeah, and it's cool from that that lens and, and can have some inspiration for us. But the definition of the word actually is, is much broader. And I think much more fascinating, which is like it implies like a, like feeling really comfortable with somebody else. It's the sense you get when you're next to a fire.

Yeah, it's the Sense you get when you have a hot chocolate with a buddy.

It Implies a lot of outdoors. And so for all of these reasons, like it's much more of this, this sense of feeling around others, that's really important to us. That really made it a great word for us, which Is when We think about building community, whether it's a as simple as a social community like Instagram or how we handle customer service. But all of those things are adding up into a broader community around our brand. The sense of Kosellig is this amazing word for us in terms of what we really want to achieve. The world is semi pear shaped all the time, right?

You pick up and, you know, read your phone and read the news. It's not Awesome. Typically.

Dave:
Yeah.

Jamie:
The world needs a little bit more Kosselig.

The world needs a little bit more Kosselig.

Dave:
Yeah.

Jamie:
Than we got. And so like for our brand to be sort of that bastion of coziness and just treating people kindly and with respect was the perfect word for us of what we want to achieve.

Dave:
I like The familiarity, the trying to encapsulate the feeling a associated with the moments like the sunset, you know, exactly family either after the mountains or on the beach or around the fireplace or. Yeah, I mean, those are the moments that, uh, are some of my most cherished moments of childhood from I mean, you know, whatever. Even with my own kids, we have a firepit in our backyard.

Yep. My favorite thing, because we can just sit there, not even speak and just, you know, stare into the fire. And. But those are the moments that I'm going to remember ten years from now. 20 years from now. Right.

Jamie:
Exactly. And if you can distill some of that into a brand and give a small slice of that to everyone that associates with that brand, yeah, That to me is like a powerful legacy and sort of where I want to have impact on the world. The last pillar we've talked about a little bit, but we call it Protect the Places we live and play.

Because we are an outdoor centric community. Um, by design we, we care about what's happening in terms of environment sort of access to nature. And it's a big part of what makes our lifestyle so special. And so we wanted to absolutely make sure that there is a component of our brand that really honored that. And so that was considered design.

We are an outdoor centric community.

It's, it's recycled materials. It's really trying to design products that are better for our planet. Not perfect, but better. It was around who we partner with have those same shared goals. And then it was a give back that in some way, if if we're going to tell a Park City story or a Utah story that we want to be having a direct impact locally on protecting sort of the space that we're all leveraging and using.

Yeah. And so the Summit Land Conservancy is the recipient of that, which is, you know, a perfect place to be giving sort of 1% because they are very active in water resources, in protecting sort of mountain and sort of natural environment and open spaces. It just felt like the right partnership. And so that's our last pillar.

Dave:
Okay, I want a bag. Get to get myself a bag. Some go in a summit outdoors as t outdoors. Come out. You guys have outdoor, okay? No, not with an S without social media. Do you want people to follow you on?

Jamie:
Yeah. Two weeks on primarily Instagram.

Dave:
Is great. It was very visual. It's a beautiful bag place. Yeah. Plays Into like and the outdoor stuff you can tie into lots of visual kind of, you know, storytelling.

Jamie:
Right. Exactly. And that's just at some empty outdoor. Um, so pretty simple. And yeah, we're, we're two weeks into the journey, so it's not like there is a massive marketing machine going on out there quite yet. And as a boutique brand, you know, we're just trying to take it one step at a time and do things the right way to do it quality and really build a community that that feels connected to what we're doing.

Dave:
So nice.

Jamie:
Yeah, I really appreciate you having us. And in our second week.

Dave:
So and this will be exciting because like in a year or two from now, we'll come back.

Jamie:
Over, check it. Okay. Yeah, that's what's happening. So we're going to have a success story or a failure story. Either way, it works for you. Yeah, it works for you. This is.

Dave:
Great. Well, Jamie, thanks for coming on. This is great. Do you go? Do you prefer James or Jamie?

Jamie:
I No, I Go by Jamie.

Dave:
Jamie. Okay. So, Jamie, appreciate you having you on. And Yeah, I look forward to the follow up.

Jamie:
Thanks so much for having me.

Dave:
I appreciate it.