There is a formula for virality.

Dave:
Okay. Today on my podcast, Brand Sweat and Tears, I have Jay Davis, who is the founder of Creatively. Yeah, the founder of Pillow Cube and owner and and manager and curator of many other things which we're going to get to.

Dave:
We're going to get into that. But I've been friends with Jay for a long time and huge fan kind of a fan boy, actually. I want to be Jay when I grow up. But but Jay is one of the kindest people I know. Just a cool guy, but also has accomplished some amazing stuff in business and in the consumer goods space.

Jay:
Thank you.

So what I think is really cool about your story and kind of unique, you started this creative agency and I'll let you tell the story about how creatively came about, but then also created your own products. Yeah. And have bought some turned some around like kind of have done a little bit of everything now in the consumer product space, which is awesome.
‍

Dave:
And so you're eating your own dog food, marketing your own stuff, which I think puts you in this really cool position of authority or experience. You can talk to your own personal experience when it comes to starting a product, creating a product, bringing it to life, marketing it, selling it everything, which I think is amazing and probably helps you a ton in the conversations with fellow creators, fellow entrepreneurs, because you're not just an agency that has done it for others, which which is good.

Dave:
Yeah, but you've done it for yourself and you're walking the walk and talking the talk, which I think is awesome. So I'm excited about where this is going to go. Yeah, I'm excited to hear some of the stories. Jay also has a podcast, The Jay Davis Show.

Jay:  
Yeah, right.

Dave:
And so we'll have to promote that a little bit at the end and you get some other really cool guests on that are creators themselves. So start us out with how did, how and where did you start creatively.

Jay:  
Yeah, So, and thank you for the kind words. Uh, so yeah, like I started creatively in 2017, I think it came about I had done viral marketing before that, uh, and had really like kind of fall in love with that process of like blowing stuff up. And so being.

Dave:
Where you got to tell the story of viral marketing before that.

Jay:  
Because yeah, it's actually going. Yeah. So I started my career after college. I my first job was at Vivint back when it was the apex alarm and eventually worked my way into the product development team, which was a team of one was just me and just me and my boss. And so yeah, it got to see kind of, I think Todd Peterson's a great entrepreneur.

Jay:  
I was able to learn a lot from him and from the executive team and just kind of observe how they did a lot of great things. I think they were able to push and build a consumer brand in Utah at a time when, like consumer really wasn't a huge thing in Utah. Yeah, you know.

Dave:
Yeah.

Jay:  
most of the consumer companies and kind.

Dave:
Of famous I mean impressively so.

Jay:  
On a.

Dave:
Global stage for B2B software.

Jay:  
You.

Dave:
Know WordPerfect and all these companies have kind of spun out of like that tradition. Yeah, but consumer hasn't really been a thing or at least wasn't.

Jay:  
I thing that time. Yeah. Yeah. At the time like and this is like 2829. I mean I really can't even think. I mean Trager wasn't around yet. Skullcandy was so like Skullcandy was one of the other, like kind of fuzed. They're just whirring a ton. And so it was great experience for me to see, Oh, this is how you can do consumer.

Jay:  
And, um, so I got to learn a lot of things there. And then I left and joined the color run, which was this kind of new event that no one had ever heard of, and the founder had invented this idea, come up with this original new idea of taking the Holly Festival that we do here in Utah, as well as down in Spanish Fork, but they do around the world and kind of took that and combined it with ak Mm hmm.

Jay:  
And so it was really great and it was able.

Dave:
Suddenly all these themed.

Jay:  
Runs started.

Dave:
Exploding. Yeah, like Spartan and like a lot of the obstacle 30 dash.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
I can't even.

Jay:  
Oh, there were so many. And what's interesting is that the, the mud runs were around when we started, okay. It was actually color run. They kind of started the five K thing where it just all of a sudden it was like bubble runs and water.

Dave:
These ones were more like.

Jay:  
Tough.

Dave:
Endurance. Yeah, you know, I did a couple of the.

Jay:  
20 mile, 15 mile and.

Dave:
Some of those were brutal. Yeah, really hard. Yeah. And the color run was more super fun. Like almost kids. Kids can do.

Jay:  
It. Oh, yeah. Anyone can.

Dave:
Get involved. And it's not about like, this endurance sport. It's more like super fun and social kind of exercise.

Jay:  
Yeah. Yeah, right. It was crazy and it was the perfect timing. It was visually appealing and so it was really great there. I got to see like, Man, this is this wild event thing. And I, I volunteered to just start creating content and videos. And so we started making videos and they started going viral and it was really fun experience.

Jay:  
And then me and one of the guys that I had hired started a YouTube channel and we started making videos ourselves and those started going viral. And so it was a really fun kind of experience too, to go through and learn like, here's how things take off, here's how things grow. And that was always very interesting to me.

Jay:  
And then I, I started to think about like, how can I now apply this back to entrepreneurship? For me, I never wanted to be an influencer. I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And so

Jay:  
I was always trying to figure out kind of how to make that happen. So.

Dave:
So how does something go viral?

Dave:
you're you're talking about like you started to learn about what made things go viral, The color run videos started going viral. Some of the crazy stuff you got to talk about the Ninja kids or the Ninja.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
Whatever. Like that stuff?

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
What makes something go viral? So, I mean, it seems like an accident, right? Yeah. Then you started learning, like, maybe there's a pattern to this. Maybe there are some aspects that we can predict or at least have a high likelihood that it's going to go viral.

Jay:  
Yeah, exactly. So I think that was one of the things that early on I kind of realized and a lot of that came through trial and error. Yeah, we had videos that we launched that didn't do as well or they would, you know, kind of go viral but not crazy viral. And so there was like also varying.

Dave:
Is there a scientific question? What's the distinction between viral and crazy viral?

Jay:  
I don't really think so. That's what's hard. I mean, technically, anything that's going viral from a scientific standpoint is something that spreads to people exponentially. And so if you have you give a disease to one person, they give it to more than two and that starts to become a viral growth. And so very similar. I mean, in those early days of Facebook, we could see like, hey, we were posting videos to our own Facebook.

Jay:  
Like the very first one that we did, we decided let's only posted to our individual Facebooks and just see what happens. So we only did that. And then, you know, three days later, J.J. Abrams retweeted it. I was like, okay, that was really viral. And this is the you know, this is like, I don't know, Kevin.

Dave:
Bacon, five degrees of separation.

Jay:  
Like, totally.

Dave:
Who was connected to J.J. Abrams?

Jay:  
That was your network. Yeah, well, it was funny, was third.

Dave:
Fourth.

Jay:  
People started reposting it and they started sharing it on Reddit and they started going to those places. They shared it on Twitter. And, and so back then there weren't really algorithms. You just saw everything that everyone in your network shared. And so when.

Dave:
The good old.

Jay:  
Yeah, well there was a social currency back then, that's what's interesting now the social currency back then was finding new content that no one had ever seen. Yeah. And so it really enabled the ability to share viral content. Now Tik Tok does that really well, but ironically, Facebook and YouTube have have decreased sharing importance and increased engagement importance.

Jay:  
Yeah. So if someone had to do that. Yeah.

Dave:
Advertising dollars.

Jay:  
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Turns out they don't like it when you hack their system to make tens of millions of dollars without paying them. Um, and so, I mean, Tic TAC will go through the same thing right now. It's very organic. Viral. Mm hmm. It won't be in the. It'll start. It'll stay open for.

Dave:
Consumers and just be optimized for advertisers.

Jay:  
Exactly. Because that's where they'll make all their money. So.

Dave:
So this video that you and your buddy did.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
Uh, was this was the fruit Ninja one.

Jay:  
So the very first one was the in there. Oh, Kettner Yeah. It was throwing.

Dave:
Throwing kittens.

Jay:  
Throwing hands in the air to dubstep.

Dave:
And no kids were hurt.

Jay:  
You no kittens were hurt. They were literally like five inches off the blanket. But we shot it in a way that made it look like they were flying to the sky.

Dave:
And to dubstep.

Jay:  
Yeah, Busted dubstep song that Scott And then our friend Brendan, by the way, made and.

Dave:
This is is that the one that J.J. Abrams.

Jay:  
Saw? That's the one that J.J. Abrams retweeted. And then we did Fruit Ninja later that year. And so it was just kind of like we just kept doing things. And what I've learned and and Jonah Berger wrote a great book called Contagious that goes through some of this, but what we learned is really virality is almost always rooted in unexpectedness, like people are always looking for something new and unexpected, and that's what usually goes viral.

Jay:  
So what's so hard about virality and why? It's such an interesting combination of science and like intuition kind of good taste is it's hard to know what people won't expect, but that is the true nature of virality, is any time we are like, Oh man, I wouldn't expect someone to do that. So that's why virality is so hard.

Jay:  
It's also why I think disruption is so hard because they're both rooted in the same idea, which is go against the grain know. But the second that everyone else starts doing it now, it's not against the grain. So you really got to be.

Dave:
To is you can be so out there. Yeah so against the grain but nobody's interested. Yes. Right. So it's not just because you could probably create an easy for me about something that's like so counter or so counter trend or whatever, but I could just be like lame that nobody cares about at all.

Jay:  
And you see this all the time. I remember, um, it was shortly after I think we did Fruit Ninja and maybe it was after No is actually so I, I helped with some things on Squatty Potty like just consulted with the hermit Brothers. Um, and I noticed after that came out, uh, Rob Dyrdek from Robin Big. Yeah. And the skateboarder, he did like a video for a company and it was.

Dave:
Like the kids These days it's ridiculousness.

Jay:  
Yes. The guy who hosts Ridiculous. Yeah, way back in the day.

Dave:
Robin Big.

Jay:  
But he did this video trying to advertise a company I think he was an investor or something, and it was like a similar kind of squatty potty knockoff or No is a Poop Harry knockoff. And it was big dressed up as a giant poop like sliding down a slide into a pool full of poop. And it was just like, disgusting.

Jay:  
Oh, gosh. And it didn't do well. Yeah. And it was interesting to me that was like YouTube. I'm sure you can look it up. Yeah, it's Robin Biggs. Like, poop. Advertisement. Yeah. And that was interesting. I think to that example of like Squatty Potty was really brilliant. And I think the Harmons did a brilliant job because they realized like, Hey, here's this thing no one wants to talk about, so how do we make it?

Jay:  
Still a little crunchy, but not like super crunchy. Yeah, I was like, Well, let's talk about it through a unicorn and ice cream. Yeah. And and this idea that unicorns poop ice cream. And so, you.

Dave:
Know, my mom lives on the conservative side of the spectrum. So, yes, I would still laugh at possibly even. Sure. Yeah. Widely.

Jay:  
Yes.

Dave:
Like within her.

Jay:  
Clothes. Yes. Yeah.

Dave:
And she'd still chuckle at it and think it was funny. Yeah. I think the poop, you know. Yeah, that's just sliding into a big pile. But she probably.

Jay:  
She's like, Oh, that's too much. And so that's, that's one of the things I think that's hard is you see this with Hollywood directors, like they'll make something that's like so shocking, so different and it's like it's not palatable. And so and that's that's where I think where a lot of that intuition comes with disruption is like, we notice this with persecution, this is giving head a little bit.

Jay:  
But with Pearl Cube it was like, we want to do something that's different than any brand out there, but we don't want to get to the point where we're a medical pillow that if you have on your bed and you had a girl over every day like, what the hell is that? So it's trying to find that balance.

Jay:  
Yes. Like, Oh, you have a CPAP. Uh, that's why you don't get to sleep till you're married. Um, and even then, and even then, it's pretty.

Dave:
It pretty doesn't do wonders.

Jay:  
So I just. I just. Yeah, I'm just not very well why.

Dave:
Punches me in the middle of the night. But, you know.

Jay:  
That's how it is.

Dave:
It's how it is. Okay. So creatively, you've done a couple of viral videos. You're like, Hey, I want to apply this back to business. I want to help other businesses. So I'm going to make this agency. We're going to do this.

Jay:  
Official Yeah.

Dave:
So you started doing it officially under the Creative Blue banner and had some big successes. Let's give a shout out to a couple of the ones that are your favorites, right?

Jay:  
Yeah. So Manly bands I think is a great one here in Utah, Alice Springs.

Dave:
But we're made of like silicone and other stuff, right?

Jay:  
Yeah, Like crazy dinosaur bone. Yeah. Meteorite like, unique material. Yeah, I guess we should. Yes. Right. Yeah.

Dave:
Not your traditional, just like, gold, silver or whatever. And then, uh.

Jay:  
Outlet outlet was another great one.

Dave:
In fact, I got to get Kurt. Kurt, if you're listening to this, I still want to get you on the podcast. They just hit a huge milestone.

Jay:  
Yeah, Got FDA approval.

Dave:
Approved, so yeah, super cool for that. I got to get that whole story one on the podcast. So all of it, which is the baby monitor. I have one for both my infants.

Jay:  
Yeah, I'm the little.

Dave:
Sock that they were and it kind of told us like their heart rate and gave us some kind of, you know, breathing alerts if they're having any issues or something that's kind of super well, not kind of cool.

Jay:  
Super cool. Yeah, it's amazing technology.

Dave:
So you did a video for them.

Jay:  
And then did a bunch of videos for them. Yeah. Clean colt out of New York, Clean coal, which is all.

Dave:
Kind of earth friendly cleaning products.

Jay:  
Yeah, right. Yeah. They just brought in Walmart as an investor, so that was awesome. Pretty awesome. So yeah, like, we've done, uh, launch Dallas, right? Yeah. Thread wallets.

Dave:
Redwater. Remember, that's my introduction to thread. Well, it was the video.

Jay:  
That you did.

Dave:
Which was really cool. Had the founders on Colby and Mackenzie.

Jay:  
And yeah.

Dave:
Cool. They're like, they're the ghost story. Yeah, it was kind of cool to see them. And then, I mean, the list goes on, but yeah some really really cool.

Jay:  
Yeah

Dave:
And so you had this kind of repeat consistent success with all of these things. And I remember in the middle of all this and you and I have talked about this a couple of times during that, but people used to talk about viral video as it's a mystery and it's just pure luck. Yeah. And, you know, there's not a way to like, you know, repeat that and obviously can't make certain guarantees

Dave:
But what was fascinating to me and so cool about what you guys did and are still doing that creatively.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
you keep having these repetitive successes where you get these videos to hit millions or tens of millions of views? In fact, Were we talking about this? Would I see this on your website or something? Like how many billions of collective views of you guys? Yeah, I mean, it's

Jay:  
Billions.

Dave:
And billions.

Jay:  
Like PIllow Cube has almost over a billion

Dave:
Just by itself. Yes. So it's crazy. Yeah. Like you you figured out this formula, if you will, the magic formula to help brands get the visibility, the traction, the word of mouth. And that's where it becomes evangelical, Right? It's not the brand is not talking about themselves. It's people word on the street. Hey, this is cool. Hey, did you see this?

Dave:
And people are sharing it with each other. And that's the most powerful way to sell consumer products, for sure. Right? Is the word of mouth. Referrals from friends, recommendations from friends and it's coming through these channels of trust that people are like, oh my gosh, this is cool. This is really amazing.

Jay:  
Yeah, yeah. No, that's that's what's super interesting is I think it's there is there is like it's definitely more than luck. Um, and I think that's what's really interesting about it is there is a science to it and and usually and not even usually like every time we have something that doesn't work, I'm like, Oh, I knew it wasn't going to work for this reason.

Jay:  
And we have a model that we've built out. And any time one of those pieces is missing, it's easy to kind of it'll be fine. Like we'll figure it out. And it's like, No, it wasn't.

Dave:
So this model feels scripted, but it's not. That was impromptu, but it's beautiful because I was just about to lead us to, okay, this is not one of those podcasts where we just do rah rah like everything's awesome. This is really this podcast. The whole purpose of this brand, sweat and tears concept is, Let's get real, yeah, let's get vulnerable, Let's talk about reality.

:
Dave:
So talk about some of the epic fails. Talk about like stuff that just fell flat and why? Like what did you guys learn from that? What makes something. BOM Yeah, you know, compared to this stuff that was successful.

Jay:  
Yeah. So I think one of the things there's been really good. So I had that experience with creatively of like scaling stuff up, getting it a lot of attention. I think one of the things I've learned the most from starting my own brands that then leverage creatively is that that's a piece of the puzzle. It's not the whole puzzle.

Jay:  
And there's a lot of stuff like you hit a point where growth is not just increasing spend. MM Right. Like you started these points where like there's a lot of other factors. So I think one of those examples is like we launched a kid's pillow, um, that did really well out of the gate on Kickstarter work, you know, like you creatively.

Dave:
Then you guys actually decided to start your own product. Yeah. Pillow. Q Yep. Awesome pillow for side sleepers. Yeah. And then there's this kid's one called the Pillow Cub. Yep. And.

Jay:  
And it was and it was, you know, we did a Kickstarter without spending a ton of money thinking, okay, another is great is going to be amazing. And then we went to source the product and the sourcing guys that are on our team who are doing the sourcing just didn't get a good price. There's some reasons why, and we found out later why we didn't get a good price.

Jay:  
Uh, but we then had to charge like $60 $70 for this pillow and no one wanted to pay that.

Dave:
Even though we're paying over 1 for. Yeah. Oh, cute. Like the big pillow.

Jay:  
The. Yeah. Dollar pillow, right? Yep. People just like kids. Kids are pretty easy Sleepers.

Dave:
They’ll Fall asleep on a hard floor.

Jay:  
For Yes And so all the sudden parents are just not doing it. We have all these pillow covers and we can't sell them. And so that was a lesson for us of like, Hey, you can have the best marketing in the world. But if things aren't kind of if, if all the other pieces aren't there, like you're not going to be able to scale and grow.

Jay:  
And so we just had to learn that the hard way.

Dave:
So the video marketing for pillow Cubs was great. Doing fantastic.

Jay:  
Yeah, it was great.

Dave:
Great CPM Basically, you weren't profitable. You could sell, you could sell well, you weren't selling.

Jay:  
We'd lose money. You'd lose money because the number of people who would come to on the video wouldn't convert high enough to actually be profitable. And so I think that's one of the things I've learned. And then there's also things where, you know, I've had to learn hard lessons of public as well about like the adoption curve, the like you're early adopters are always going to be willing to pay more because they feel the pain really acutely and that's why they care.

Jay:  
That's why you can market to them. Then you get to the masses And the masses are like, I don't want to pay that. And I don't feel that pain that intensely.

Dave:
There’s a Million pillows out there...

Jay:  
Yeah, whatever. And so that's another thing that we finally had to shift. And so I think that that's one of the hardest lessons I've had to learn, is that you can have all the viral videos in the world. There's still a lot of stuff you got to figure out. And that's why running companies is hard.

Jay:  
Yeah, because it's not. I think almost every experience entrepreneur met, you know, this, uh, there aren't any silver bullets. No, but. But young entrepreneurs are looking for silver bullets. Yeah. You're like, Hey, what's the one thing I can do to get this? And it's like, Well, I can give you that thing. I can give you a ton of awareness.

Jay:  
Yeah, but. But that's might actually cause more problems than, than you think. One of the early examples of this in kind of Creatably history was right after Creatably started we got a client who's doing a product very similar actually to Gabb who came later. We launched Gabb, Did all the initial marketing for them and that was really fun but.

Dave:
For people out there, Gabb is the safe phone for kids, So they have their own hardware. I mean, they outsource the manufacturing, but it's not like an iPhone. Yeah, Samsung. It's like they have their own unique hardware, their

Jay:  
Own software have their own watches.

Dave:
And it's safe for kids. Kind of has what phone calls, texting, whatever, right? Yeah.

Jay:  
All my girls. Yeah, they don't always love me for helping launch it.

Dave:
But the people who are paying the.

Jay:  
Bills love it, love it. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave:
And it's so there was one before Gabb. The guys were working with us, so

Jay:  
Yeah, even like couple of years before Gabb, we were working with this company that did an app that you installed on your iPhone and then your kids phones would attach to that app and it would let you monitor what they're saying, what they're texting, who they're calling, what apps they're using to control things. Yeah, really like monitor it.

Jay:  
And it was really cool. Like, it was like, man, this is amazing. And so we started testing and we're like, Hey, you know, there's some things that need to be fixed. You need to do a rebrand, you need to do all these things. And they were like, Yeah, great, we'll work on that. We'll get all that done. And so we started working on the marketing and honestly, it's like one of my favorite Creatably campaigns.

Jay:  
Like, it's hilarious. Uh, tons of funny jokes. Like if people want to go look at a really funny video... Is it on your

Dave:
Website? I don't think it is?

Jay:  
I don't think so.

Dave:
Yeah. So where would they find it?

Jay:  
You can bet it is YouTube, but I think it's still on YouTube. It's called web safety. Okay. Uh, but it's hilarious. Like we had jokes about Bill Cosby in there and, you know, like, there's lots of things kids or there's lots of things we used to think were safe, but now realize they're not like lawn darts. And Bill Cosby.

Jay:  
And then the dad is about to take a drink out of a drink And the moms like, don't drink that. Yeah. You know, just like, great. Like, it was so funny and it was such a great piece, but the product wasn't there. And we kept saying, like, Hey, you got to fix these things. You got to get these things going.

Jay:  
And he's like, Yeah, I'm working on it, working on it. And then we get the video done and it's like, We should launch this, but you're not ready. And he's like, Let's just launch it. And then we'll like, we're almost there we’re two weeks away. Yeah. So we launch it, get tons of views, tons of people talking about, tons of sharing and it just tanked the company like read reviews on App Store went from like five star to one star overnight.

Jay:  
Well, hundreds of one star reviews saying this sucks. You know, it's to the

Dave:
Downside of getting a ton of attention if the other pieces of the puzzle aren't quite there yet. Right.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
And it's easy, like you said, for an entrepreneur to think, I just need a ton of attention. But you kind of got to be ready for the attention because you can be good or a ton of attention can be.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
Tough or bad luck. Yeah. I mean, people say there's no such thing as bad press, There's no such thing as bad publicity, but not

Jay:  
Really.

Dave:
In this particular case, Yeah, they weren't quite ready.

Jay:  
And that's something we think about a lot. I mean, that in particular, that example helped influence like when we were talking to people like, Are you ready for this? I would even argue like Pillar Cube got more attention than it was ready for because we just didn't have the SKUs to support. Now, that's okay because we've kind of caught up quickly and we've followed that.

Jay:  
But you know, there was a lot of times there was like, Man, we have so many views on this thing and people are like, I need a cheaper version. I want, you know, these other solutions I want. And that takes time. Yeah. Uh, it's not easy to launch 50 new products. And so, um, so yeah, like even going back to PIllow Cubs, like we've now fixed PIllow Cubs and it's doing great.

Jay:  
Yeah. So, but there's this belief and this is where what we sometimes see is like because we're so good at marketing, which we are like, we're really good marketers. We know what we're doing. Often other people on the team think that we can market anything. Yeah, or even clients. They're like, You could market anything. And anytime someone says that I stop them, I'm like, I really can't market anything.

Jay:  
Yeah, I can't market crap. Yeah, if it's crappy, it's eventually going to come back. And so that's, that's why And when you look at, you know, I go back to a lot of first principles, it's still a demand and supply curve. Yeah, you raise a price, a ton, demand goes down and you just don't have as much demand.

Jay:  
Yeah. And so, you know, that's one of the things we've learned working with Walmart is they're like, Here, let us show you data of the difference in volume between something we charge $10 for and something we charge $20 for. Now, different categories are different things and there's different margins.

Dave:
And it doesn't matter if you sell a billion things for $10 if you can't make money on that, right?

Jay:  
Yes.

Dave:
So you still have to play like you have to be aware of the margins.

Jay:  
Yep. Ball got to know you're unit economics.

Dave:
And sometimes people very intentionally brands and I'll have a bunch of guests on the podcast that I've got lined up that are intentionally extremely highly priced. Yeah, it's not just about their cost plus a margin like they're intent that's part of their brand as part of their intention to be the most expensive thing in their category. And that's part of, you know, that's, that's part of that strategy.

Dave:
Yeah. What's what So we'll talk about that in different episodes, but.

Jay:  
Totally come.

Dave:
Back. It's like you guys don't market anything. You've actually developed this process. The sixties six, you kind of talked about that and actually the, you know, in the creatively interview that I think people will see in other formats.

Jay:  
And yeah.

Dave:
But you've created this formula a process. It's not just all about the creative stuff, which is super fun, but you're actually very scientific and methodical about if this product is going to be successful, it needs to fit these six, you know, aspects of these six criteria.

Jay:  
Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly So we, we look at it

Dave:
You kind of formulate that six D’s the hard way...

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
By figuring

Jay:  
Out like

Dave:
Why isn't this thing working?

Jay:  
And yeah, okay.

Dave:
Or didn't have this and then you fix that and then the next time it's like, okay, this is, you know, we plug that hole or fix that problem.

Jay:  
No, exactly. And I think that's exactly the the challenge for for a lot of entrepreneurs is it's easy to get into this. You know, if I have a viral video, I can charge more than people are willing to pay. And it's like you really can't. And I think exactly like you said, every business needs to look. It's not to say that everything should be cheap.

Jay:  
Yeah. Either. Like we we like things that usually, on average are more expensive. Yeah. Like, I would prefer to market something, especially in the early days, something that's higher price. I think the natural tendency of entrepreneurs is I'm just going to go undercut everyone. Yeah. And it's like, but you have a disruptive product that's better than what's currently available.

Jay:  
Yeah. And you're going to charge less for it. That doesn't make any sense. And so I'm not even proposing or recommending that people always go cheap. But it is important to understand.

Dave:
You just have to have a really good idea and understanding of the unit economics and the supply and demand curve and where you intentionally need to be to make a profit and want to be. And because that how that plays into your brand. Yeah. Are you a Walmart product which isn't bad or are you a premium, you know, exclusive boutique, maybe even like not even on Amazon, not even, you know, it's like, yeah, it's kind of hard to get kind of a product.

Dave:
And there's a strategy behind that too.

Jay:  
And I think what's interesting is what I've learned through this process and owning our own brands is that 90% of the time when people don't have product market fit, it's because they don't know who buys, they don't know why they buy, what motivates them to buy, and they don't really understand this. Whether their product solves the problem this person has or doesn't.

Jay:  
And so that's what's so interesting. As you get more and more into this and you start to realize, like, no, that's that is the key thing. It's it's very rarely, you know, like some ambiguous I think people are always like, oh, we don't have product market fit yet. And it's like this vague like, oh, I don't know why.

Jay:  
I mean, like we'll talk to people. Like when we talked to parents, it was like, look, I just don't want to spend 70 to $1 on my kids pillow. Yeah. And as you talk to even very wealthy

Dave:
I’ll spend that on

Jay:  
my Pillow,

Dave:
Yes, but for my kids.

Jay:  
They're fine.

Dave:
Like I'm a bad parent. It's just that they literally can sleep anywhere.

Jay:  
Yeah. We're not they're not all

Dave:
Or they're

Jay:  
Not.

Dave:
Bodies are rubber. Yeah. They bounce off the floor. Yeah. They can roll up in a knot and stuff in their laundry basket. They don't need a decent or an awesome pillow.

Jay:  
So you get a kid who maybe has like a rare, more rare kind of situation. And yeah, the parents willing to pay to solve that problem because it's like maybe they have scale. In that case, you might want

Dave:
To spend thousands on a pillow. Yeah, solve that problem.

Jay:  
But for your average parent. And so that's what's funny to me is I go back to, I think being an entrepreneur so often we way overcomplicate it and we just avoid the simple but hard questions of do people want to pay for this? Okay, but I want to play like it with you. Okay?

Dave:
Because this is such a hard topic, I think especially in consumer goods. Yeah, this concept of product market fit because I've personally experienced and I think there are a lot of entrepreneurs out there who've actually taken the time to have conversation turns.

Jay:  
Yeah, yeah.

Dave:
People you talk to, people you get feedback and not just friends and family. Like, yeah, you know, I've even spent time like literally in a shopping mall on a street corner, you know, talking. Yeah, just passers by asking them questions to try and get, you know, understanding about a product idea that I was working on. And the hardest part about this whole equation is people will tell you something,

Dave:
Not, not, not. They're lying. They're not trying to be nice. That's genuinely what they think they would like or they think they would do. But when they actually get the physical product.

Jay:  
They act

Dave:
Completely differently or some whole new thing comes in. So it might even be related to like touch, taste, feel, smell like all these other senses. So like hypothetically, somebody might really like your idea, even, you know, complete stranger. But then it's even this whole other level of like once they've actually got it or used it or somebody might love the idea of sleeping on the

Jay:  
PIllow Cub. Yeah, but

Dave:
Until they actually try it and have slept on it, not even just one night, but like for 30 nights in a row, maybe they don't

Jay:  
Like it.

Dave:
Yeah, you know, or, or maybe they thought, who cares? Like I can sleep on any pillow. And then conversely, like after sleeping on it for  nights, they're like, Oh my gosh, this changed my life.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
So when you're talking to other entrepreneurs and you're talking about this product market fit and they're like, Well, I think I think I know. I mean, at least I've had some conversations like, how do you help them? Like really figure out and how does a creator really get to product market fit in a consumer product space?

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
I mean, kind of have to experiment a little bit. Yeah. Figure out how to get your real product or the closest prototype you can into certain people's hands so that they can try it out.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
Now this leads into like, this other cool thing that you guys discovered. Yeah. With the pillow cube.

Jay:  
Yeah, right.

Dave:
So let's talk about that.

Jay:  
Yeah. So there's, there's several things that I would say if someone came to me and said, Hey, I'm struggling to think, I think yeah, I don't know. But like no but when I go to market it known buys it or when I go to sell it, people say they love it and then they want pay for it. Yeah.

Jay:  
So I think there's a couple of really good principles. One of those principles that I learned early on with PIllow Cube was asking the right questions. And I think in general, entrepreneurs almost always ask the wrong

Dave:
Leading questions for confirmation bias.

Jay:  
Yes. Yeah, there they're trying to get them to tell them what they want to hear. Yeah. And I'm trying to get them to tell me the truth. Yeah. And so I kind of lucked into, in many ways, this system of how I do that. So the first thing that I do is as quickly as possible, I try and create consumer goods is way easier than software.

Jay:  
But now software is getting easier too. Yeah. You can build something in air table that gets you like, kind of pretty darn close.

Dave:
Yeah, functionally close to what the end result will be.

Jay:  
Even. Oh, what is the one that now does interactive beta products? The design is not fake. It may be fake.

Dave:
Figma.

Jay:  
Yeah. Figma. And some of those other ones like you can design it and then

Dave:
Adobe has kind of a version of that. It works with Figma other sketch there's yeah. And there's a bunch of no code kind of builders like Adalo and other platforms where you can like no code, you can kind of whip together a working prototype of an that yes, even has like a mini database behind it.

Jay:  
Yep. So it's become so much easier. So we kind of lucked into this idea. We're like, I had gotten these two pieces of foam from a potential client. I'd laid on it. It was they were each 12 by 12 by 3. I put two of them together, laid down. I was like, Oh my gosh, that's the pillow I've been dreaming of my whole life.

Jay:  
Yeah. So I spray glued those together. I hired a seamstress for I paid her 50 or 1 bucks to make us a cover. And then I just started showing it to friends.

Dave:
So it's fugly.

Jay:  
It's not. Yeah, it wasn't perfect, but.

Dave:
It's like.

Jay:  
This is the foam... you can feel that there's this material doing it. Yeah. Like, yeah, if

Dave:
This is even close, then we could refine it a little bit. Yeah. Like, we're seeing, like, does this kind of, this whole idea of a squarish pillow that keeps your neck, like, at the perfect level, your spine kind of aligned. Yep. So you give it to how many did you make?

Jay:  
So I made one. I would just like to begin with and I just started showing it to people and I didn't ask them, Do you like it? Yeah, I just would ask them more experiential, like how does that feel, Does that relieve the pressure? Is it high enough? Is it short enough? Yeah, because I kind of assumed, Hey, this isn't perfect.

Jay:  
Yeah. And I want to make you feel comfortable giving me feedback. Yeah. And a lot of time here.

Dave:
I want to pause on that first bucket and highlight that because there is a massive, massive, massive distinction in feedback from Do you like it? Yeah. Which nine out of ten people are going to say yes just to be nice?

Jay:  
Yes.

Dave:
People mostly don't want to be jerks or be rude or hurt your feelings. So we're going to say yes, I like it.

Jay:  
Yeah. But even.

Dave:
Like it is this

Jay:  
Nice range

Dave:
Of like, Yeah, well, what does that even mean? Do you it like, would you pay a certain amount of money for it. Do you like it like you would actually want this as your pillow? Right. So like it isn't a good question.

Jay:  
Yeah. To that point, yeah. Do you like it when you enjoy

Dave:
Asking where how does it make you feel. What, what other kind of

Jay:  
Yeah. So like I think, I think another one that's really important to avoid and this probably goes against every business professor at every business school. I never asked people if they would buy it because it's a dumb question. I instead will ask, Will you buy it right now? Will you give me $ right now? Yeah. If you're going to ask that, then ask that.

Jay:  
You've got to be I don't say like willingness to buy surveys or such, but yeah, like it's nonsense because they're not pulling out the card. Yeah.

Dave:
Which actually is the beauty of Kickstarter.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
In that it's like give us your credit card, commit to 95 bucks or whatever. Right now.

Jay:  
I want to.

Dave:
Way in advance of getting this

Jay:  
Product. Yeah, it is

Dave:
That's kind of the litmus test of totally.

Jay:  
Are people willing to.

Dave:
Put their credit.

Jay:  
Cards stopped using Kickstarter in that way? They started using Kickstarter as a preorder system and not as a way to test discover truly. Well, people talk. The great poet Jay-Z once said the group, uh, money talks, so talk more bucks. And I think that's like the key thing. Like money talks. So when you're asking people if they are buying, are willing to buy it, they better be able to pull out a credit card right that second and buy it.

Jay:  
Yeah. So I never ask for that.

Dave:
Money Waste of time.

Jay:  
Test. Yes, they. Oh, would you pay for this? How much would you be willing to pay. Yeah. Because also consumers don't understand cogs and marketing costs. Like when we tell people that the pill costs $70 or like how this couldn't cost more than $10, you're like, well, it does cost more than $10 because you're not actually a very good Yeah.

Jay:  
Person at understanding cogs of a consumer product. You're a consumer, you're not an operation supply chain expert. Yeah. Um, like one of the things people are shocked about, like if you just went and wanted to buy off the shelf one block of our phone, it probably about $3 for that block of home. That's the level of foam we're using, but it's because we buy.

Dave:
Massive scale.

Jay:  
Tens of thousands of those blocks every month. Yeah. And so there's a difference. Yeah. Um, so like, I think that that's so that's one of the things I don't ask for. Things I do ask is how does that feel on your neck? Is that the right high? Is it too high, Is it too low? I'm going for very specific like, Hey, here things I'm worried are either working or not working and I want to figure out those things.

Jay:  
And I think that's one of my bigger principles, is any someone comes as I'm struggling, I'm always going back to first principles of like, where are you struggling? Yeah, are you struggling with grabbing people's attention? That's usually an issue of it's costing you a lot of money. Your CPMs are really high. That means that people are either not interested in your product or not.

Jay:  
Your content isn't doing a good. Isn't it interesting enough? And so I try and drill down to like, so what's the real issue here? Sometimes people come and say, like one of the most common ones I get if I go to a flea market or, you know, farmer's market, I sell my product like crazy. If I sell it in person, I sell it like crazy.

Jay:  
Mm But as soon as I try to market it to the masses where I can't have an individual conversation with them, then it doesn't work. And that's actually literally the problem that creatively sells because that's a disruptive product problem. Yeah, anytime you have a disruptive product, you usually need 5 minutes to pitch it. Yeah. And so when you can pitch it in person as the founder and people will buy, yeah.

Jay:  
The problem is we need to replicate you as a founder. That's why we often do founders stories.

Dave:
And that's where the long form video works. Great was on for a while or whatever actually works great, and you can have a really bad long form video because you do it right. It replicates that like I'm almost in person with you selling this product.

Jay:  
It's also why most people think that we want to be funny, just to be funny. It's like, No, we want to be funny. So we keep their attention for 5 minutes. Yeah. Uh, and if we can keep their attention for  minutes, we can pitch your product.

Dave:
And the funny is the thing that also makes it shareable.

Jay:  
Yeah, because.

Dave:
Might share it with someone, not because you're like, Oh, they need this pillow. It's just do this is hilarious. And so you get that extra like, Yeah, spreads it as far as possible. Just because it's fun, it's worth watching. Even though you weren't necessarily.

Jay:  
Most artistically according to studies, the most shared but least watch videos are charity videos that tug at the heartstrings. And so if you want to look at like so when people say, why don't we do something emotional that makes people cry, like, well, cause everyone will share. No, no.

Dave:
Will do it.

Jay:  
And when you're advertising, not watching the ad is kind of a big deal. That's not a great thing. If no one watches the ad and learns the ad, what you do and why it matters to them. Yeah, so that's why we use humor, because humor gets people to pay attention because they're waiting for the next joke. Yeah, it's giving them, you know, some some positive feedback.

Jay:  
So. So those are the things. So kind of first thing I want to know is like, Hey, what's working? What's not working? That's another great question. Like, as you try this product, what's working for you and what's not working for you? Yeah, I don't like the smell. I don't you know, that's just an easy way to go. So that's kind of first is like, how are people feeling?

:
Jay:  
Another key thing I look for is I look for like grouping across or, you know, when you go shooting, you're always looking for grouping. Yeah. Like it's more important to be grouped than it is to be Bullseye. Yeah. Because you're, you're getting a consistency.

Dave:
Yeah.

Jay:  
So same thing. When I talk to consumers, I'm like, Hey, is there this grouping? Like, one person can say, this is the worst pillow I've ever tried. So stupid. So. Deb Mm hmm. Okay. But I surveyed  people and 97 of them said it was the best pillow they've ever tried. Now, they still might have feedback and tweaks, but I'm not going to listen to that one person.

Jay:  
Yeah, that's one of the hardest things I think about running a business is you hit a point where you just have to stop caring as much about some of those individual statistics. You can have someone who says you're customer service sucks, I hate you guys, you're the worst. But when you go into the data and you're like, Hey, our average response on a first time reach out is  hours, that's pretty great.

Jay:  
Yeah, we're resolving % of tickets within 6 hours. That's also pretty great. I don't know a lot of people who are resolving that many things. Same day. Yeah. Um.

Dave:
So the outliers, you can't let the outliers get you down or make you.

Jay:  
But. But it's still good data on a pattern.

Dave:
Yeah. Then you really got to start paying.

:Jay:  
Attention to it. Yeah, And that's where we found, I mean, just by talking to consumers, having that space, um, that's where we found a lot of product ideas too, where people say, Man, this is so great. What? Make this better? Yeah, could you do could you do this? Could you do this? We still do that all the time.

:Jay:  
And just by being willing to listen. Yeah, kind of opening the gate of like, Hey, I don't think this is perfect and this isn't done. And I'm still to that point, I.

:Dave:
Oh, Cuba's on version 2.0. Yeah. The first one is a perfect square.

:Jay:  
Yeah.

:Dave:
Now there's a rectangle. A longer one.

:Jay:  
Yeah.

:Dave:
Did you even do, like, different heights or some different heights? Yeah. So do you.

::Jay:  
And even.

::Dave:
One. It was amazing. But then people like. But could it be, you know, could it be longer, could be more rectangular square? Could it be, you know, what about slightly different, you know, neck heights or heights or whatever.

:
Jay:  
And even then you look at each of those individual pillows were on version, like 4 because we've tweaked foam and box and packaging and everything. Yeah. And that's when you just take in that mentality. I think that's the key thing. And that's also why I'm not afraid. Like when, when Pillar Cubs didn't do as well, a lot of people, a pillow cube or it creatively were like, We should just do it.

Jay:  
Yeah, let's be done. This sucks. Yeah. And it's like, No, that's taking data and we're not diving into the data again. We're not looking at like, what are people saying is not great about this? Yeah, let's solve those problems we find. So you did the product.

Dave:
As you were. It. The feedback might have said there isn't a market for pillows for kids that are. Yeah, whatever. But you had enough data to say it's not that they don't like the product. It really was about the price point.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
And I mean I know you got to other a couple other, you know, pieces of feedback, but there was, there was enough there to say, no, we're, we've got something here. We just need to tweak it. We need to make sure, you know, we got to source it better, make it cheaper. There's a certain price point here that people really like this.

Jay:  
And I buy this. And I think that's the thing is like you need to know as an entrepreneur when to do broad stroke things and when to do fine strokes like pelicans. I looked at and said, okay, we got $1,0 right out the gate. We just need to go talk to those people like what's missing. And so we learned a lot of things.

Jay:  
People were like, Hey, it's bigger than it needs to be. And I'm like, Great, that will help me reduce cost. So they're like, It's 12 by 12. Honestly. Could be ten by ten. Yeah, ten by ten would be great. So I was like, Oh, awesome. Okay, let's move it to ten by ten. Thickness was good. People liked the thickness.

Jay:  
There were some things that were more expensive that people were asking to take away. They're like, Hey, this is really like Shaggy. And I actually think it'd be better this like, you know, lower pile and you're like, again, cheaper. Yeah. So, so that's where it's often asking. I think a lot of times people don't talk to their customers and find out like, is this is the thing I'm paying extra for driving value for you or is it driving a negative value.

Jay:  
Yeah. So these things that we had upgraded to or.

Dave:
I was emotionally attached to.

Jay:  
Or Yes, it's really.

Dave:
Fine for on there. But yes, that's what nobody cared.

:
Jay:  
Nobody cared. And and what people what we found the number one driver on kid's pillow is the parent needs to be willing to pay for it and the kid has to want it. Yeah. And so the kids we nailed that.

Dave:
With, the kids aren't thinking about like, does my neck hurt in the morning.

Jay:  
As.

Dave:
Much as like, old, old people like me are. They're just like, is this cool?

:
Jay:  
So and that particular deal.

Dave:
They want some of that. They're like.

Jay:  
That's.

Dave:
Cool.

Jay:  
Because we had some people on the team who is like, Let's just make a smaller kid's pillow, like exact same as pillow cube, Let's not do a character. And I was like, But that's what drives the kid to want it. Yeah. And so I think that that's the thing that, so that's another piece of that puzzle. So I kind of like ask those questions.

Jay:  
I try and drive as go deep as possible to like, what's that core problem? Is that really the problem, or is there something behind it? Yeah. And then the other thing I kind of lucked into, we made that one sample. Yeah, here we go. Yeah, this is.

:
Dave:
My favorite part of the story right here.

Jay:  
And then I made 20 samples. Yeah, they weren't glued in the middle. They're better samples. They'd been improved. I gave out those 20 samples to friends and family, and then I was trying to think how. I don't want to test price yet, but I want to know if they want it. And so I want them to do is I'm going to ask them to not have it.

Jay:  
I ask them to give it back. I want that back. Yeah. And I didn't really need it back yet. I wanted to ask them, so I called all of them out. It's it's such a low test. And so I gave them all the solution to their problem. And then I said, Hey, I need that, that solution back. Yeah.

Jay:  
And people wouldn't give it back. They were like lying to me, giving excuse. Oh can I give it to you in a week? Yeah. I just need it for one more week. I was like, okay, there's something here. Yeah, because we're not talking about money yet. We're not talking about any of those things. We'll figure all that stuff out down the road.

Jay:  
Yeah, but what I need to know right now is like, do people want it enough that they don't want to give it back? Give it up. Yeah. And that's a really important test. And we've implied that in so many other things where like when we first saw stair slide and we became the first investor in that, I took it home and my kids wouldn't stop playing with it.

Jay:  
Um, you know, I had another person who gave me a toy the other day and I took it home. My kids wouldn't stop playing with it all weekend. Yeah, there's a ton of other business things to ask. Yeah, Yeah. Is it patented? Is it, you know, did they have the unique ability to make this? Would I have been willing to pay for that toy as a parent?

Jay:  
Like if, if that toy was $5,0. Yeah. Even if they played with it every day, it's probably not worth it. Yeah. Um, so there's a lot of other things to figure out, but that's again, goes back to, like, find out one thing at a time. So if no one's going to your website from the content, there's something either wrong with the content or the way you're pitching the problem, problem in the solution, your call to action might be weak, but let's not start changing the price because they don't even know the price.

Jay:  
We didn't say the pricing in the ad, but that I'm amazed how many times I see entrepreneurs doing that. Yeah, it's like, Oh, dad's not working, no one's going to the website. Let's lower our price. They don't even know what the price is. Yeah, that's obviously not the issue right now. Let's first see if we can fix this problem.

Jay:  
Then once we fix that and more people are going to the website.

Dave:
If tons of people are going maybe putting in their car. Yeah, bailing. Okay, maybe prices.

Jay:  
And that's, I think, a key thing as an entrepreneur when you're looking at all these statistics that you're given. We're giving all this data now, like as a consumer company, Shopify gives us so much data. Yeah. The question is to know what does that data connect to? Conversion rate connects to what price website functionality? Mm hmm. Kind of the two major things, like if people aren't converting either the website doesn't do a good job of selling the product.

:
Jay:  
Your price is wrong. Yeah. Um, now, again, it's not a silver bullet. So it's all these things that you're kind of turning dials and seeing what's happening. Yeah. Um, and so I think that that's the key thing. But I learned that, that lesson, like, first thing I want to know when I'm starting a business or buying a business is like, do people want the product when I give it to them?

Jay:  
Do they not want to give it back? Yeah. Then I go to testing price. Yeah. And I usually do that through a Kickstarter or just like I've gone to the mall before and just stopped a person being like, Hey, do you, have you heard about this product? Oh no. Are you interested? Yes, I'm interested. Okay, well, you pay $ right now, like I have a credit card machine.

Jay:  
I can swipe it right now. Yeah. And people are like, no. Yeah.

:
Dave:
Even if that was fake.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
Even if you were like, You got this and you just have this, like, non-working thing, this remote.

Jay:  
But I swear on your phone.

Dave:
Okay, I can swipe it right now. Would you pay 1 for this right now? Even if and then they're like, they have to make that decision.

:
Jay:  
That's huge, right? Yeah, That's what's great about Kickstarter.

Dave:
It's such a cool topic. It's such a cool thing to think about because I think about all the products that I've bought recently and if someone said, Give that to me back, there are a couple that I might you know, I might consider. I'm like, okay, but there's a bunch of them like, No, absolutely not. I'm happy to give them shout outs like I've got both Mission Belts and Grip six, which I love both of those.

Dave:
They're kind of, yeah, but they're different belts. But if someone said Give, give those belts back and just go back to the good old, you know, metal clasp belt or whatever, I'd be like, no way. Yeah, you're not. You cannot pry these out of my cold, dead fingers.

Jay:  
I would.

:
Dave:
Like.

Jay:  
To I have this wallet on my phone called the moft. It's the same thing.

Dave:
Some of those like give it back. You'd be like, no.

Jay:  
It attaches with a magnet. Your phone stand.

Dave:
Are we getting this on video? It's a lot of screen there.

Jay:  
Yeah. You have a stand and I'm like, I broke the other day. Just like, disconnect. Yeah. And I was using another wallet. Yeah, from a company I actually really love. And I'm like, I need that thing back right now. Yeah. And so I super glued it back together because I've used it so much. Yeah. Um, and.

Dave:
Thread wallets to that.

Jay:  
Point. Oh yeah.

Dave:
Well, it's same thing. Like I'm not going back to my huge fat.

Jay:  
My wife cannot leverage wallets.

Dave:
I've got both thread and Ridge and I love them both. And it's the same thing if you ask me to like give up those wallets and go back to like a big fat, you know, try for my bag. No way.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
There's no way. In fact, I use them uniquely. The thread is my minimalist when I'm doing something where I just going to have like one credit card, cash, whatever, and Ridge is like my bigger like for everything in it. Then I use them both and I but I want them both and I wouldn't give up either one of them.

Dave:
Yeah, you go down that path. But I love this idea of would you.

Jay:  
Give it back?

Dave:
Give it back to see if people are like, no way, I'm not, I'm not giving.

Jay:  
Well that, that also tells you like return rates, like a cube has a return rate that's four times lower than the industry average. That really helps us financially. Yeah, because most people, once they try it, they're like, Man, I can't imagine sleeping any other way back. Yeah. So I think that's like a key thing. And then, and then I go to, you know, the price test and get people like you said, it could even be fake.

Jay:  
Mm hmm. You could design a website.

Dave:
But you have to get them really to the point again. It's like not. Would you buy this? Theoretically?

Jay:  
Hypothetically, yes.

Dave:
Would you pay $1 for. Yeah, right. Now give me your card.

Jay:  
And if they start to pull the card out and you say.

Dave:
Okay, that's.

Jay:  
Awesome. I'm just kidding. It actually is. It might be better.

Dave:
If they're, like, pissed that they can't buy.

Jay:  
It, right? Yes. They're like, Dang it, I was totally going to buy it. And that's where Kickstarter is great. It's great to know that there were 5 people who were like, Yeah, you know, And sometimes we have products like we have a product that, uh, we did a Kickstarter for it funded successfully, and some of the executive team really doesn't like it.

Jay:  
Like, I don't know, I'm like, Hey, let's look at the data. Yeah, we had hundreds and hundreds of people who backed it and then right before the day before that, the Kickstarter like funded and everyone's money was locked in. All of our friends and family canceled that. We had begged to, like, help get the machine going. Yeah. And then hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of strangers did not cancel.

Jay:  
Hmm. What does that tell us? Well, it tells me our friends and family did it because they love us and we asked them to. But those hundreds of strangers that I don't know. Yeah. Did it because they want the product. Yeah. And that's a super important test. Yeah, they we should not dismiss that because there's , 5 people there who were willing pay for it and kind of like, well, we'll get it to you sometime in the next year.

Jay:  
Yeah. And it's hundreds of dollars for this one product. Yeah. That's a really good test. Yeah. To know. Okay, we're on to something. Yeah. And so do you.

Dave:
Want to talk about that product? Do you want to name it?

Jay:  
Oh, yeah. It's the dream machine. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it was something that like, I think it's for people who are really obsessed with sleep now, there's still a lot of stuff to figure out. How big is that market? Can we eventually move to the masses? All that stuff. Yeah, but we'll figure that out down the road. Yeah.

Jay:  
Right now we just need to create something that people are super excited about. Yeah. So I think that that's what's hard for.

Dave:
Dawn has been tougher.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
To be fair, though.

Jay:  
Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

:
Dave:
So if we're talking about again, going back to the theme brand, sweat tears. Yeah, the difficulty and you're on to something because enough people besides friends and family like you said, have prepaid and they're waiting. Yeah, but you're still struggling to try and get it perfect, right? Or get it to where you think we're able to really blow this thing up.

Jay:  
Well, and this is what I think is hard and this is what you have to recognize. If you are going to be an entrepreneur who disrupts, you need to get really used to being lonely. Yeah. In your beliefs. Because there are a lot of times where people are like.

Dave:
Even people on your own team.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
You've been through successes.

Jay:  
With you and seem.

Dave:
And they're still like, This sucks. I don't.

Jay:  
Want to. Yeah. Who've seen you be right before when they thought you were wrong and then you proved to be right. Yeah. And so that's what's hard is like every time you do something new. And I think that's something that naturally drives me. Like people are kind of like, Well, you've started an agency, but you're not. You, you know, running a brand is different.

Jay:  
I'm like, Well, then I'll start a brand and I start it. And I grew that brand faster than any of the clients ever grew their brands. And then it was like, Yeah, but you've never, you know, turned something around that you bought. And I bought something and turned it around and now it's like, Well, you haven't done tech.

Jay:  
And I'm like, Okay, then I'll prove that I can do tech. Well, I think that as an entrepreneur and as a disruptor, you need to kind of have that personality where you're okay with being alone in your beliefs, and then you're also okay with everyone kind of doubting you and being like, I don't know if you can pull it off because any time you disrupt and do something crazy.

Jay:  
Yeah, most people are going to think you're crazy. Yeah, most people don't are going to question you, right? Well, yeah. You know, I even talked to someone about that product the other day, and they're like, You have it. There's similar things out there. And I'm like, No, but it's missing this key piece. And that piece is everything. Yeah, like that difference is not small.

Jay:  
Yeah. And then there might be like, I don't know, I think that's pretty similar. And you're like, Well, one of us is going to be right and I'm okay trying and doing it and eventually being around. Yes.

Dave:
So this is this is such a fantastic conversation, I think, because this is the creator's curse, but also the difference between a real entrepreneur, a real creator, and someone who's not.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
And I think that is that willingness to fail  times

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
To get to the 1. But but even more than that, I want to be clear about this. It's not even that getting here. I think it's the 1. It's the whole process of creating is enough of a motivation. It's enough of a drive that you're willing to be wrong a thousand times if that's what it takes. In fact, ultimately and this is the extreme

Dave:
But like if you never succeed, you still would have done it. Yeah, for the whole process, the process of creating the process of trying to bring an idea to life, going through that effort, going through the pain and the suffering, the sacrifice, the effort to bring something to life. That's what drives true creators and the difference where people, you know, the separates the creators from the non creators is the people who wanted to get the silver bullet, the people who wanted to just get the success, who just wanted the outcomes, but didn't appreciate or want the actual process of creation.

Dave:
Yeah, because it's hard.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
It is really, really hard. And the society, media, whatever tends to glom on to or attach to the success stories that are more like hitting the lottery in Vegas, like the, you know, the lucky winner out of a thousand, instead of thinking about the 9 stories where it was just failure after failure, after failure after failure. And they kept trying and kept trying and kept trying and and and were just they they kept that belief.

Dave:
Not that and this is the tears part. Like this is a good place to kind of end is that they're it is an emotional roller coaster. I'm not saying that all creators are just like insanely resilient, like never feel like crap. I mean, like crap on a daily basis.

Jay:  
Yeah, but.

Dave:
You still have a purpose and a passion for creating that helps you get right back up. You get knocked down, you get back up, you get knocked down, you get back up again. Because the process of creating, you're driven to create, driven to bring something to life. And that's the motivation and man, when you get the when you hit the, you know, the accomplishment or you get that success, it's it's got to feel pretty awesome.

Jay:  
Oh yeah you're looking.

Dave:
At pillow Cube in the I don't know do we talk do we talk numbers like you know.

Jay:  
I can say I always get tired of this, but yeah, investors get a little squirrely. I can say that.

Dave:
Millions of dollars...

Jay:  
Oh yeah. Well you know I like

Dave:
but it's been phenomenally successful.

Jay:  
Yeah. Like first year we did 4 million, second year we did 30. Just under 30. Yeah. Um, and grown

Dave:
From.

Jay:  
and kind of continue to grow.

Dave:
Like, imagine where the

Jay:  
Numbers are going. Yeah, but it's fantastic.

Dave:
So you're like, okay, this is amazing. And, but on the dream machine, you're not there yet, you know, we're still early in the process and everything, But what I know about you is that it's more about I'm creating this thing. I believe in it. And I've, I've seen enough data to encourage me. I'm not I'm not I'm also not talking about there is a crazy level of being a creator where you ignore.

Jay:  
Everything.

Dave:
Everything. And there you know, in the face of data that's telling you otherwise, you still persist. Like, I'm not saying that I'm not.

Jay:  
Yeah, you.

Dave:
You got to listen to the data and there is enough data after you've exhausted everything that might say, give up on this idea. Yeah, there is a time to quit. Yes, I want to say that, but you've got enough data with Dream Machine to say there's something here. And for me it's a part of like bringing this thing to life.

Dave:
It's a new challenge because there's tech involved, there's software involved as well as just like the physical, you know, mechanics, the machine itself and the other thing is, if it works, it can positively change millions of people's lives. Yeah, That's the other thing too, is like, Yeah.

Jay:  
But what if. Yeah, what.

Dave:
If it does work? What if it did work? It can positively impact millions of people. And that's that for me is kind of the thing.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
Like, man, if I know this is a stretch, I know this is crazy, but if it works...

Jay:  
We'll change the world. Yeah. And I think that, that not to be

Dave:
Cliché about it, totally like making a difference in a lot of people's lives.

Jay:  
And that's the thing that drives me with PIllow Cube like the the lesson I've learned through Creatably is that any time someone comes and pitches me a product and says I'm going to be so rich or we're going to be so rich, and like, there's a horrible idea. Yeah, and we don't work with those people. Yeah, because what I've learned is those people only care about money.

Jay:  
Yeah. Any time someone has an idea and says, I think this is going to be $1,0,0,0 idea. And that's the main thing they talk about is like, I've got this idea and it's going to make me so much money. It's like you're going to hate entrepreneurship because there are days where like I kind of notice, like days are either really good days or really bad days.

Jay:  
Like you kind of have bad days and then it is just like, want. Yeah, there really isn't. It's not like you have a lot of mediocre days. Yeah, you have amazing days where you're as high as high can get and then days where you're as low as low can get. Or it's just like this person suing us where someone just got hurt using a pillow, you know, like just thing after thing after thing.

Jay:  
You're like, Yeah, I can't do it. And then you have like great news the next day and things turn around. And so you kind of learn as an entrepreneur, like to kind of ride the middle. Yeah. Like, okay, when the highs are high, you kind of bring yourself back to earth

Dave:
Don’t Let yourself

Jay:  
Get too carried away. Don't buy into your own hype. And then we have low days and It's like

Dave:
Too shall pass.

Jay:  
This too shall pass. And so but that's what really keeps driving me. Like the thing that drives me is when I talk to people who have used Pillow Cube and they're like, It legit has changed my life. Like I haven't slept well in 20 years. Yeah. And this has improved my family, my relationships and I’m like it's just a Pillow that's crazy, but it makes me feel so grateful and so excited that, like, we're having an impact on people.

Jay:  
Yeah. And it's the same that did it. Yeah. It wasn't like, Oh, tell I'm.

Dave:
Going to make, I'm going to make $1,0,0,0.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
And the other thing that's, that's I mean people talk about it but it is like you were solving own problem too. And so there's even an aspect of creating of like I don't care if no one else on the planet likes this thing. Yeah. Because if I solve my own problem, it'll make my

Jay:  
Life way better,

Dave:
And that's enough for me.

Jay:  
And that's fine, right? No, totally. And that's I think that that's what's interesting and unique and why you have to go back to, like, what is the reason I'm doing this? So what is my drive? And exactly like you said, like I love creating products, just love creating solutions to problems that people have. And I, I struggle with like trying to keep myself in check to not launch a new business every day.

Jay:  
And so that's kind of where I struggle. But I love that process. I love the process like for me, Pillow Cubs, going back to that has been really fun. Yeah, because it's like this thing that often my team was even like, We should just kill this. I'm like, No, I see where this can go. Yeah. And now we're finally a point where we fixed it.

Jay:  
We've changed it. We're getting huge retail opportunities. Yeah. And it's going to be something that's going to really impact. And even though kids are super pliable and you know, they can sleep on anything, it really does make you sleep better and

Dave:
Have a comfortable

Jay:  
Sleep. Yeah, you really should have a good pillow even if

Dave:
They're not demanding it. Or if they're not, they, they should be comfortable.

Jay:  
Right. And that's I love one of my favorite things to hear from parents is I But you've said this to me. I got pillow cubs and my kids love them. Yeah. They play with them every day. Yeah. They take them everywhere they go. Yeah. It provides them comfort. Yeah.

Dave:
And to your other point, my daughter, all she cares about that. It's a sloth. Yeah, That.

Jay:  
It's cool. Yeah.

Dave:
Like she doesn't talk about, like. Oh, I slept so comfortably or not. Yeah, it's more like a toy for her. Yeah, more like a plush, you know, animal or.

Jay:  
And it feels added. So there's this side benefit parents of hey this actually does encourage better sleep positions and and sleeping kind of ergonomics Yeah but the kids almost don't care Yeah they're just it's.

Dave:
Her buddy she can't go to sleep without it because it's her little friend. It's yeah, it's more like

Jay:  
Yeah, yeah. Like a plush. But that also makes me happy to to know that there's kids out, like we're working on something as we relaunch these to get them to foster kids so that they have something that like when they go to a new house, most foster kids show up too. And it there's something my wife's been looking and working on.

Jay:  
But she found this statistic like most kids, when they show up at a new foster home, show up with a trash bag. Yeah. And they have a couple of things in a trash bag. And so she's been working on this idea of like, let's go give them, like a welcome kit that has, like this pillow cub that's just for them.

Jay:  
And, and so, like, those things make me really excited. Yeah. Like, oh, we're having this positive impact. We can use this to do good in the world, you know? Davis Smith, I think is a great example here in Utah that but like.

Dave:
Cotopaxi for those I mean yeah, probably at this point most everyone on the planet knows Yeah, yeah. Cotopaxi and Davis Smith.

Jay:  
And they do great things. But like Thread - Colby and Mackenzie, they're always doing stuff for people, Stance is like, consumer companies I think overall, most of the ones I interact with are thinking of how can we help people? Yeah, well, yeah, and it’s so cool.

Dave:
I mean, because it's tied into if you're a creator for the right reasons, it ties into making people's lives better or doing stuff that positively impacts humanity, the planet, whatever. And so, you know, if you can be really profitable in your creating your product, it also allows you the ability to do all these really cool things like your, you know, no money, no mission.

Dave:
So you got to have money to fund the causes that you want to really get behind, but then you can do some really, really cool stuff.

Jay:  
Yeah, exactly. So that's that's what keeps me excited. And I think that's what for anyone who's out there who's like should I be an entrepreneur? It's like that's you got to love that. You got to love if you really want to be disruptive, you got to be very comfortable with. And I think that's something I've had to learn the hard way of like kind of everyone being like, Oh, maybe this will work.

Jay:  
Yeah, And we've had we've had people literally quit and say, I just don't think Jay's right. Yeah, yeah, I think he's nuts. Yeah. And it's like, okay, I

Dave:
Can't buy

Jay:  
Into this. And then a year later it's like, Oh, I was right, yeah. Now. And it's not something I'm like, flaunting it like

Dave:
But even if you weren't, let's say you weren't. Yeah. And you haven't always been right.

Jay:  
Oh yeah, I've been wrong.

Dave:
It's okay if they're like I don't, I don't, I don't believe in that. I'm no, that's okay. Because the other part is for you, You want people on the team that are passionate about the cause. Yes. Again, the process.

Jay:  
is key.

Dave:
Even if we fail, I'm still in because I believe in the vision, the mission. And if again, that what if, like if we're successful, then are these these really cool things that can come about. But um, yeah, I mean, if someone's like, yeah, I just don't buy into that, that's fine, you know?

Jay:  
Yeah. And I think the key thing for me there, it's not me being individually right about any one thing. Yeah, it's being right about, Hey, when you put the process to work, it works out. Yeah. When you talk to customers, when you get feedback, when you optimize and change to make a better experience for people. Yeah. When you're striving to always make a better product for

Jay:  
People. Yeah, it that process always works because you're trying to do right by your customers. Yeah. You're never like, Hey, let's take shortcuts. If they came to me and hey, you're always taking shortcuts and you're always trying to screw people, I would hope they would like, Yeah, yeah. But when it's like, I don't know if these things are going to work and sometimes the problem is that they're looking too much at the the application is something that I talk about a lot.

Jay:  
Yeah. Is almost always in business. We're looking too much at the final applications or the tactical side of things. Yeah, and we're not looking at the bigger principles and then big central ideas or doctrines or, or guiding missions or guiding principles or beliefs or whatever those are, whatever you want to call them. And I try and spend more time up here thinking like, Hey, you might look this and say, Well, I don't think this is going to work because I don't think Dream Machine is going to work.

Jay:  
Yeah, it's like, but that's not the guiding principle. The guiding principle is we make products that impact people's. Yeah. That help them to live a better life. Yeah, we give it to them at a price that is reasonable and affordable based on the value we're giving them. Yeah, those Guiding.

Dave:
And the bigger picture too, is you're not looking at yourself as a pillow company. Yeah. You're a sleep improvement. Yeah. Company which, which kind of changes the whole vision or the whole mission of the thing. And I think for creators too, that get stuck on one product, I just make this product instead of why are you making that product?

:Dave:
Is there a bigger vision which opens the doors for potentially new products, other types of products, related products or whatever, Instead of just being pigeonholed into like, Oh, I'm the wallet guy

Jay:  
Or whatever, Right? Yeah. And I think every great brand does that I look at. Yeah, I think Thread has done an amazing job of that I think Cotopaxi, I mean all these groups in Utah and outside of Utah, liquid death like I think liquid death has been very interesting and yeah, people are like, well you have is water and it's like do you know how much we can do in the refreshment...

Dave:
They can sell a basketball

Jay:  
that looks like a severed head. Yeah.

Dave:
And we can sell

Jay:  
Tony Hawk’s blood,

Dave:
Like blood in the board or what was it. Was it a skateboard? Yeah.

Jay:  
It was Blood embedded into the deck of the skateboard.

Dave:
Into the deck of the skateboard. Yeah. And people, they sold out and they were in crazy high demand.

Jay:  
And then they also actually had sparkling water, ice, tea, water like, Yeah, all of these other things. And so I, I always look at that and I always say great entrepreneurs will build more space for themselves. So like, look at Google and how Google just slowly over time expanded into all of these other things were beyond search. Yeah, but it's because they're great entrepreneurs.

Dave:
And not every one is absolutely, you know, super successful - like Google Circles and

Jay:  
You know, and they've had Google Glass.

Dave:
It feels like they haven't really. Yeah, there's things that they're like, but they're willing to fail because they're kind of on a mission to, again, generally speaking, to make people's lives better. Um, and when you get huge, it's harder and harder maybe to stay, stay focused on the original mission.

Jay:  
But. Well, and I think that's another one of my guiding principles is that it's totally fine to fail unless we refuse to learn from it. Yeah. So if, if we refuse to learn from our failures, then we shouldn't fail. Yeah, but if you're willing to learn from the failures, failures process. I mean, every single one of these, like I said, tons of little failures, like, Oh, we did Cubs and it was great.

Jay:  
And people are excited and then we can't sell any after the Kickstarter as like, What did we do wrong? Where did we miss? And it was all those little failures that if we had just finally, okay, just get rid of it, let's just, you know, accept TJ Max's offer to sell these on a discount and we'll just kill the brand kill the product line.

Jay:  
Yeah, but instead it was like, well, what are what are the failures telling us? What did we miss? What did we do wrong? And I think that's that is the key. Like every single great consumer brand that we work with and that I know those are the things they share mean I'll let even with Owlet finally getting the FDA like there were a lot of people who were like, Oh, this is the end

Jay:  
Oh, so they didn't do it.

Dave:
So many like investors and like friends, If I can get Kurt to come on, This is a this is going to be an amazing story. Yeah. Especially as it applies to like brand, sweat and tears because there a lot of sweat and tears I

Jay:  
Know, to get that thing to turn

Dave:
around. Yeah. To get it to where it is. It's and it's no easy feat. I mean it's, it's been a, a passion project for sure because it wasn't just

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
You know the all the ones who bailed or been doubters were the ones who were just focused on the money or the profitability or whatever. And I think there was a bigger

Jay:  
I'm sure Kurt has learned a lifetime of lessons around Being lonely. Yeah. I mean, there were just tons of people were like, they should just give up. Yeah. And the FDA really was kind of stupid in the beginning, in my opinion. Like it was kind of like, really, really? We're going to nitpick over like, the wording of this?

Jay:  
Yeah, but that's what great entrepreneurs do. And Kurt's a great entrepreneur. He was willing to say, I believe in this mission and I'm going to keep working until I solve these things. Yeah, even if every single person on my team doesn't believe me and he has a great team. I mean, he has a lot of people have stood by him.

Jay:  
Um, and investors who stood by him and then some who didn't. So you learn in those hard times like, well, here's, here's, uh, you know, what I'm made of, and it really kind of proves you as an individual. Yeah. You really get to go through those difficult experiences.

Dave:
So Jay, wrapping up, this has been awesome. It such a good conversation. Oh, I love doing this podcast.

Jay:  
Because it's

Dave:
So fun to have conversations like this. Even if no one listens. I know like my mom and my wife, well I don't even know if My wife - she hasn't given me % guarantee, so I might not have very many listeners.

Jay:  
So we'll see.

Dave:
But where do you go from here? You're going to keep creating products. I know you've invested in a lot of products.

Jay:  
Yeah, both

Dave:
Cash and service like services from Creatably and stuff. So, you know, you believe in getting aligned with some of the products that you work on - you’re working on Dream Machine. You also have launched, uh, ice cream.

Jay:  
Yeah. Cold Case. Ice cream.

Dave:
Case Ice cream. And is that website like where can people find

Jay:  
Out about it? coldcaseicecream.com Okay. We drop a new box of six brand new flavors every month. Uh, flavor is super premium, super high end, but the flavors are unreal.

Dave:
So for an ice cream lover like me, Go check it out. Yeah. And Dream Machine, you are in the process of fundraising and

Jay:  
modifying

Dave:
the prototype or modifying that version that you sold on Kickstarter, improving it. Um, so do you have timelines or what do you want to like, say, about Dream Machine? If people are interested in that?

Jay:  
Yeah, you can, uh, you can reach out to us directly.

Dave:
You can really describe it. It's a bedside device.

Jay:  
Yep.

Dave:
Kind of the size of like a small sound machine type thing. It's got light, temperature, Aroma,

Jay:  
Yeah. Um, sound and light that simulates sunset and sunrise. The whole idea is like getting people in optimal circadian rhythm.

Dave:
Yes.

Jay:  
Optimal sleep without you having to make a conscious decision to do anything right. We're we're trying to get back to where we were 2 years ago, where you would go to sleep because your body told you to go to sleep. And since then we've had all these disruptions. Yeah, artificial light, artificial cooling and heating, uh, phones that have blue light when you're, you know, end of the day, you're not supposed to be seeing blue light.

Jay:  
You're supposed to see a yellow light from a sunset. Yeah. And so when you have blue light coming from a screen, it's telling you to stay awake. Yeah So that's just a natural thing. And so what we're trying to do is create something that uses machine learning and AI to fix your environment so you actually get up to get optimal sleep without you having to make a bunch of conscious decisions when at the end of the day you're kind of worn out on on determines motion.

Jay:  
Yeah, yeah. Some of those things that you should be able to say, I'm going to be determined, I'm going to have good habits. Yeah. And what's happening as we get to the end of the day and the device is just overruling good habits and good decision making.

Dave:
So we're all lazy when we're super tired.

Jay:  
Yeah, Yeah. And so we're trying to help people with that and then other things as well you know, can we influence and optimize sleep while you're sleeping? There's really never been a device that's truly done that where it's optimized sleep whilst sleeping in some of the ways that we're working on. So it's some crazy technology and super excited to get it launched.

Jay:  
Awesome.

Dave:
cream, stair slides, stair slide.

Jay:  
Yeah. With more than enough to do. Yeah.

Dave:
Slide for kids to put on the stairs. Such a great name because.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
Obvious.

Jay:  
Yeah.

Dave:
Kids love it. They'll break their necks but have fun doing it right.

Jay:  
It's a blast of. New stuff launching there. We have an exit piece that allows kids to kind of slide out a lot easier. Awesome. There's just always, always things going.

Dave:
There was one other. What's the other thing associated with stair slide?

Jay:  
You can boulder play, Boulder play. So we bought another toy brand and then merged it together with stair slide. The parent org is called Boulder Play. Okay, but the individual brands are really what shine. They're like, It's kind of like a mattel or a Hasbro. Like we're not we're not marketing or pushing the boulder play name. It's just the parent organization.

Dave:
But there's other stuff besides the stair slides under that brand, again, all about physical activity for kids. Instead of screen time.

Jay:  
Yeah, it's amazing.

Dave:
Fun. And is there indoor and outdoor?

Jay:  
Indoor and outdoor.

Dave:
So if its raining, Yeah, you have lots of cool stuff that they can play on,

Jay:  
like an

Dave:
obstacle course kind of

Jay:  
yeah.

Dave:
interior like bounce house kind of activities.

Jay:  
Yeah yeah. One of the ones I really love is they have a swing that attaches to a doorway. So if you have like a two, three or four year old during the winter when it's raining outside, they can swing in their doorway. Yeah. So just fun stuff. Like, I think that's another thing that we all care a lot about as parents.

Jay:  
It's why we loved working with Websafety and Gabb, is we want our kids to

Dave:
Not be screen

Jay:  
Zombies, addicted to screens and have more of a childhood like our childhood, which was playing that games at night, being outside and doing all that fun stuff instead of just playing video games.

Dave:
It's funny. This is this is going to really date me and I'm my family is even a little old school, but I didn't even have a TV in my house until I was maybe 14.

Dave:
Really? That's amazing.

Dave:
We I didn't I mean, cell phones weren't even a thing. They didn't exist until I was I don't know. I want to say I had my first cell phone when I was like , but that was like the those were like the beginning of cell phones. Prior to that, it was like my rich friend's dad, who was a doctor that had a huge military.

Jay:  
Walkie.

Dave:
Talkie stuff, and his Porsche like, Yeah.

Jay:  
So I remember.

Dave:
Seeing how much technology has changed us in our lifetimes. But the scary part is, yeah, my kids are addicted to screens for Yeah. So anything that can get them doing more physical activity.

Jay:  
More, get them outside.

Dave:
Doing that kind of stuff is good.

Jay:  
Yeah, I remember still, my friend's dad was a lawyer and I remember I was probably  or 12 and it was the first time he'd just about a brand new BMW that had a car phone. Yeah, and that was the first I was like the military grade. Oh, yeah, It was huge. Like the whole hockey tall, middle between the front seat in the front.

Jay:  
Two seats. Yeah. The whole thing was the phone. And I was like, That is crazy. A phone inside of a car. How does that even work? Yeah, Wild, wild. Where we've come call.

Dave:
Off of our little. Yeah.

Jay:  
So while you're in the middle of the ocean. Yeah. So.

Dave:
Well, dude, this is awesome. Yeah. Thanks for having me for being on. We'll do it again in a year when you're like a billionaire. Philanthropy person, we'll talk about all your philanthropic efforts. Yeah, So this is good.

Jay:  
Sounds good. Thanks for having me. Thanks,

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