Smart cities are stupid.

Dave:
Welcome everybody to the Brand Sweat and Tears podcast. I'm the host, Dave Oldham, and I'm really excited about my guest today, Eric Lo, who is the founder of Krado. Well, I should let you tell the story, but I'm excited about this super cool, innovative product. I was just telling Eric earlier, my wife and I are very experienced plant killers.

We just suck at keeping plants alive. Therefore, we're not much in the way of gardeners. We don't really have too many houseplants. If we did that, you know, I think the only ones we've successfully kept alive or plastic plants. So this is exciting. I think this will be a kind of a product that we could use that would make our lives better and help us become better and understand plants better, maybe even like micro gardeners or, you know, mini gardeners or something.

So with that, I want to turn the time over to you to to explain Krado introduce yourself, maybe give us a little bit about your background and, and then we'll get into, you know, kind of this whole journey that you've been on to bring this really cool product to life.

Eric:
Yeah. So Krado is, at the core, a plant data company, but we created a consumer product to help solve two big problems.

The first problem is, yeah, there's a lot of plant killers out there, so don't feel alone. And so it's really helping teach people, right? Because a lot of their information online is either generic or anecdotal, and it really isn't designed right. Like water is a variable. Your locations are variable. There's so many different variables, and these instructions don't accommodate any of that. And so we built tech to help you understand exactly what your plant's needs are.

But leaflet is more than just a plant care app or even a plant care sensor. It's a plant care system. So it entails, right, the app, the sensor, and then we have this other side where it's we call it need based product delivery. So we'll actually send you what your plants need when they need it. So fertilizer, pesticide, new soil.

Dave:
And the app is called leaflet? The device is called leaflet?
So this kind of system is called leaflet?

Eric:
Exactly. Yes. You have a leaflet app, a leaflet sensor and a leaflet.

00:02:13:21 - 00:02:15:12
Dave:
Did you bring a sensor with you?

Eric:
Oh I should have.

00:02:16:07 - 00:02:17:22
Dave:
Have I should have asked you.

Eric:
A good idea.

Dave:
Anyway so what I've seen pictures of - almost looks like a plant thermometer. Right. Yeah. Got a kind of a cool design with like a leaf. Sort of. Yeah. Does it light up?

Eric:
It does, yeah.

So we spent a lot of time focusing on sustainability and really bringing in technologies that have been promised for a long time. But no one's really pushed it, the industries to actually do it. So yeah, so for example, like our sensors, they're very organic looking and the reason they can be organic looking is they're all 3D printed and so they're not injection molded and they're 3D printed with plant based bio resins.

Our sensors are very organic looking and they're all 3D printed and so they're not injection molded - they're 3D printed with plant-based bio resins.

And so they're all very clean. Exactly. And compostable. But the biggest thing is really the supply chain, right? We reduce a lot of carbon Emissions.

When you don't have to manufacture millions of units and then ship that millions units across the ocean.
And now it's on demand. So we literally can have printers in our 3PLs or we can have them anywhere, like in your home. You can print them, right? Like anybody can print these. And so that just offsets a lot of Supply chain because now it's localized. It's only on demand and it's also with recyclable plastic.

Dave:
Okay. Well, I'm super curious about this. Let's say I have a 3D printer. I don't. But let's say I did. My dad does. He could print his own leaflet sensor?

Eric:
He can print the enclosures for it. And so, yeah, so say like you had a Unit and your dog chewed it up and you can have us send you a new one. Or you're like, Hey, I have a 3D printer. And I'm like, Oh, you can just 3D print this on your own and we'll show you how to, like, replace. Yeah.

Dave:
Like a smart chip or something that goes inside this, correct? And you stick this thermometer in the soil and it reads everything about the soil, the environment?

Eric:
Yeah. So it's essentially measuring Your plant's overall health, right? So we're taking into account

Dave:
You're on the app?

Eric:
We have an ISO. When you take a picture, I'm actually identifies the plant species and then from there it takes your location into account. And so now it knows where you are in the world, the type of plant you have, the baseline settings that are things that you start with.

Dave:
Okay, I've got a tomato plant. I live in Utah. Yep, I get that right.

Eric:
Yeah. Not only in Utah, where it's specifically in Utah.

Right. So you're like in Pleasant Grove in Utah. So we know like, okay, the type of soil here is this and this is like the water tension, all this, right? So that all goes into our algorithms and it dials all that in and it's always constantly learning, right? So if your neighbor also has a tomato plant, but they are just better at taking care of plants than you are That's fine, because you're going to learn from them without even have to ask them. Right. So our system will pick up like, hey, every this one person or these couple of individuals are doing really, really well in this area and they're doing something a little bit different than our system that they should be doing. Everyone now gets updated with these new info.

Dave:
That's awesome. No, I hadn't thought of that. So there's this kind of anonymized data sharing with everyone as long as everyone has One of these. Are the more people, I guess I should say that hobbies, especially in a specific geographic area, the smarter the system correct for the better. We get at taking care of these plants.

Eric:
Yep. And that solves now A core problem of community gardens, right? Is co-op gardens or even urban farms on math on paper. It's great. But what doesn't seem to count is it requires someone with a lot expertise to maintain and run. Right. And so now imagine, yeah, you have the same knowledge and resources as that individual at your fingertips. Yeah. And you didn't have to spend the time to learn, You're actively learning in real time and they didn't have to spend the time to, you know, go over like, Oh, what Did you do wrong?

Like, I don't really know. Like, I do it this way and I'm not sure how you did it, but don't do it that way anymore. Like, do it this way.

And, you know, it's always like, you know, as a scientist, as these little minute Details that you really never think about as being really important, critical. And it turns to like, be the most important factor of a failed or successful experiment. Right. And so when I was in a lab A lot of my experiments at work and a lot of people come to me like, what are you doing differently? And then I look over their protocol and I'd be like, Oh, I'm a little lazy. So I let this one sit for like 2 minutes longer. And you did exactly what it said to do. So I guess extended by 2 minutes, see if that works.

And then they do it. They're like, Oh, it works. I'm like, okay, cool.

Collectively, the sensors are adding data to the global plant database so the system gets smarter and smarter and passes that shared information along to you.

Dave:
So that's awesome. So you've got the leaflets system, there's the sensor, then an app, and then you also said that you're like going to send me like what, nutrients and like little packets or something and what do I do? I just sprinkle it in the soil, correct? Yeah. Yeah. You'll tell me this is how much water?

The one thing that you mentioned earlier that I think is cool about this is your purpose in doing this instead of making, for instance, a smart pot or a smart container that just delivered all this stuff like automagically is you're trying to educate me, correct? You're trying to teach me. So you don't want to do everything for me.

You're just trying to create this virtuous cycle, this feedback loop, to help me gradually become smarter and smarter and smarter. And, you know, you mentioned like ultimately, like train everyone to become plants scientists, right? But in a way that there's not much friction. Right. I think right now I could probably spend some time on YouTube and learn about Utah soils and, you know, even kind of in my area and learn about tomato plants.

And I could do that. But really, I'm probably not going to invest all that time. But almost everyone could say, hey, I'm going to buy this sensor stick it in this plant. And it's going to gradually coach me as we go to get better and better at taking care of these plants.

And so I sort of become a plant expert without having to like, Oh, I'm going to make this my new hobby or whatever. Yeah, you don't have to like devote a ton of time and attention to it.

Eric:
Or money or school. Exactly. Yeah. And that's the other side Of what we're really trying to build is so it turns out the world doesn't know that much about plants, right? So if you look, there are databases, a lot of the plant growth data is no, it's not available. Right. And so then you will ask why is that? And then you follow the money. And it's very clear, Right.

Is $63 billion a year spent on biotech research, 1 billion spent on plant research, and that 1 billion that is spent on plant research is only on spent on cash crops. Right. So corn and soy. And that's incentivized, right, for other reasons.

But other than that, you look through that. That's all it takes focused On the last resource we have is academia. And they have no money, right? They get no money. And if you look at the departments, there are no horticulture departments anymore. There are no botany departments. They've all been merged into either ecology or biology and then the grants and available to even research this is very low.

So then when you actually look at where plant Science is, it's about a decade behind everything else, right? They are really, really far behind.

And it makes sense, right? There's no money then no one's going be able to research this. And so nothing, No discoveries or innovation is going to happen. But this is a very, very big problem For all of us because plant science is The solution to a lot of the issues that we're facing with the climate That's coming our away. Right. Everything from carbon mitigation to urban heat relief, to water retention to air pollution, all of those can be solved with plants. What we can't what we don't understand right now is how to leverage them in a better way.

Look at solar roofs.

They're actually pretty dumb, in my opinion. Right? They deteriorate, they're very expensive and they use very hard to get resources. Right. Raw metals.

And so you're telling me that we spend a lot of time getting These hard resources to make this solar panel that in less than ten, 15 years will just deteriorate? And I can't recycle this or reuse this in any way. So it ends up in landfill.

That seems like the most inefficient Thing that we could have ever created. Right?

Dave:
We've like, convinced ourselves like, oh, solar, this is a great thing. It's a really good investment. We should do this, right?

Eric:
It is. But imagine now if we spent that time Saying, yes, solar is a great thing, but could we use plants to create that power instead? And the answer is yes, we can.

But now, if more money in research went to that, now imagine if your roof Was a Plant roof. What does it just solve? It just solves a couple of problems. One, a plant roof can Regenerate so it can heal itself. So if you Have wind damaged, hail damaged or whatever damage it Doesn't care, it's a plant. It'll recover. Right. Or grow. New leaf's too. It probably has a soil type base and so now it can hold and retain water. Three you're adding more plant material into the world. So now imagine If every single roof of every home was a plant roof all of a sudden, right? Carbon, they suck out carbon. So that's Now being solved.

They're now generating power for your homes. Awesome. They're holding more water in. But their biggest thing is they're also helping with urban Heat relief because they're absorbing all the heat and not reflecting it by concrete and tile and all the other, like, right, all solar Panels and all of that. So all of a sudden it's like, oh, this one shift and how we approach it solved four of our big problems. And the way we were going to approach solving those was is creating more things that creates even more problems.

And we just are on this loop of keeping ourselves busy forever.

Dave:
That's so crazy. I hadn't thought of plants as an energy source. I mean, you know, I think it's pretty common knowledge, or at least I've been exposed to it. A lot of, you know, it's carbon offset. That's really great that you know, it cleans up the atmosphere. That's really great. And then there's the benefits of food and materials for clothing or whatever.

Right? So there's all these things. But I hadn't really thought of plants as a substitute for like a solar power to capture and distribute energy. How close to reality do you think that is and how efficient are plants compared to like, solar power? You know, we were talking about the same square footage of plants versus the same square footage of solar panels.

How far away are we or does it exist now? Like how far do you think we're away from being like, we can capture the equivalent energy from plants as from like solar panels, for instance.

We need more funding to push plant science and plant innovation forward.

Eric:
We are really far away. Right. And that's because no money's going into the grants. Right?
Yeah, funding the research, not funding companies.

We're not funding anyone to explore this. Right. The there is evidence that, Yeah, plants can do it. We know that, right? Yes. A photovoltaic cell can do higher efficiencies right now. But that's saying that we're going to use the plants that we have available right now. Right. There's nothing stopping me from modifying that plant to be able to match that type of level of energy generation, leveraging the biology that already exists.

Dave:
Right.

Eric:
And so, yeah It's totally doable. And actually that's where I want More people to be visionaries. Like if you actually look and evaluate all the human made products compared to biological equivalents, we're not doing very well. So we have this hubris, we have this ego that we think that we can do better than nature. And then when the reality is like we're really bad at it, right?

So if You think about Storing data as an example, I love to give we store on magnets, we stored on chips, we store on whatever, right? That takes up a lot of space. And if you look at backing up the entire World amount of data, currently it takes up an entire state to store that data in our state. That's how much area we need just to store the world in our data, When if we started on DNA, it's something that's in our Blood, something that's in any biological living thing I can hold at my fingertips.

That's insane. So I just took an entire state and I could fit at my fingertips. That's how far away Our technology is for the biological equivalent. Right. And that just one example of many.

And so it's this idea of we shouldn't be using Technology to replace anything. We should be using it to augment or accentuate what it could currently exist and leveraging what already exists in our favor. Right. But in order to do that, you have to understand what exists better. Yeah. Or you can't you can't tap into It's already natural superpowers, right? So for me When we talk About carbon mitigation, second, more carbon cycle trees already do that.

So why don't we just supercharge trees to do it more, right? Like, why are we trying to create a Machine that does it when we know, like, that's going to create more CO2 just to make the machine and it uses raw Materials. And so you look at supply chain, you're like, this doesn't add up at all. I don't care if It's a big pile of trash.

Dave:
Yeah, exactly. And it needs to start somewhere.

Eric:
Yeah, right. So that's another thing to think about, like, okay, suck out carbon. Now what? They got stopped somewhere. So then people are like, We'll make an underground facility, will bury all this.

And it's like, you know, Roots do that right? Like Roots do that naturally. Or the tree stores itself. And then when the tree dies and decomposes, there's a whole ecosystem that makes sure that the CO2 stays underground. Right. And doesn't need us to do it.

Dave:
Yeah.

Eric:
And so it's just yeah, that mentality.

And so, yeah, that's the solar punk future. And so I want more and more people to start envisioning what that future looks like. Right. How does technology work in harmony in our favor? And it's not really designed to replace us or to replace any living thing that's currently out there.

Dave:
So talk about your background a little bit and then let's get into the whole like, why did you do crypto? And that'll lead us into this cyberpunk versus solarpunk, which - I've heard the cyberpunk term before, but the solar punk term is kind of new to me, so I'm super excited to get into that.

Eric:
Yeah. So my background Is I'm, I was or I still am a molecular microbiologist, so I spent a decade at the, you know, in the pathology department studying iron metabolism, and they switched over to biotech where I developed diagnostic tests. So a lot of the COVID type tests, PCR based, those were my field that was developing that, right. And then I ended up getting a masters in computer science because I saw the need to merge science and tech, right?

Like I'm saying, you use tech to help you do your work better and faster, right? You don't do it to replace anyone because that's not what tech can do really. So anyone who's afraid of A.I. is like, that's not really what A.I. is going to do. If you're worried about that and you're thinking about wrong, it's like A.I. is here to help you do the things that you're like, Man, it takes up a lot of time, a lot of my brain space.

Can you just do this? Probably in areas like, Yep, sure, I'll do the boring stuff. It's like thinking like, I'll do all the other creative, more bigger problems that need to focus My time and energy on.

Yes. Then Krado started... I actually had a pretty long, unique journey. Right? And this is actually how any business starts is you have an idea and the idea had nothing to do with plants. It was actually blockchain in electronic health records.

That was the first idea. Okay, Nowhere near plants, right? But so 2018 Bitcoin blockchain is becoming a hot topics. I studied it and I thought like, oh man, electronic health records is so Broken, right? Like Again, the amount of time it takes to just transfer from the University of Utah to the pediatric one takes days and you're like, Why does it take days to move a file from one spot to another? Right? And it's because it's not well tracked and kept and everything. So anyway, but it turned out we Did a lot of research and it turned out had nothing to do with technology, had to do more with agreements and just bigger entities that don't want answers. Yeah, exactly. And then we found out the big giants, right? Bezos, Buffett, Amazon, Google, Apple have all attempted this and failed. And so it's like Because of the politics.

Yeah, you have billions of dollars and network way bigger than mine and you can't solve this problem. This is not a problem for me to be attempting.

So then we explored every blockchain Concept, right? We looked at title insurance, automotive industry rehabilitation and insurance and everything, and then it really just came failing to the end of, I didn't think blockchain tech was quite ready to solve all of these problems and that decentralized isn't the best solution for every type of problem, right? No matter how hot this tech is. And what I really noticed was we were using this buzzy tech to infiltrate into industries to now have the potential to disrupt within.

But most likely the solution isn't going to be built.

In a lot of cases, those were like, Here's a new hammer called blockchain. Now I'm looking for a nail to pound. Yeah, trying to figure out ways rather than saying like, Hey, here's a problem I've got, Blockchain would be a really good solution for that, correct?

Dave:
Right. The best tool for it.

Eric:
That's yeah, evolved a little bit. Yeah. So then finally at the end and in parallel To this, I was getting into plants as a hobby and I was struggling, right? And so, and I was humbled because my background right. I've taken care of things as small as macrophages, white blood cells, all the way up to mice, to rabbits. Like everything in between, I kept alive. And not only that, I was genetically messing with them and keeping alive.

And so I had all these indoor houseplants. I'm like, What is up with you? Like, you are easy to be just using water and light. Like, what are you freaking out about? And so right. So then I started learning. I did the research, I started watching YouTube videos, I started reading articles, and my plants didn't respond all the Same to any of the advice that I was getting. And I was like, Something's off about my plant. Then this plant. Yeah. And like, and I'm doing the same. Yeah. And then I would measure everything right?

Like I would measure the levels, I would measure runoff, I measure TDs. I had a, I even brought out Like by the way, I would do in a lab and I brought out my log book. I tracked everything. End of the day. I was like, I can't make sense of any of this data because the approach of going about is actually completely wrong, because the way I'm doing it right now is very reactive. So I wait until the plant gets sick. Then I'm now like measuring all this and that data doesn't tell me anything because what caused It to get sick happened Maybe two, three weeks ago.

And I wasn't paying attention then. I thought everything was great. And so that event happened and I have no access to like, what was that event.

And so now when I'm trying to troubleshoot I actually don't know what the best course of action is. Right? Is this a fertilizer deficiency? Is this a lighting issue? Is this a watering issue? Right.

And then when you read like a yellow leaf, they're like, it could be any of these. And I'm like, cool. That's very helpful for All of them.

Dave:
Yeah.

Eric:
Yeah, exactly. And you're like, okay, so you get one shot, right? You get one shot to try and figure out what is the true cause.
And if you get it wrong, the plant's gone right. And that's where most plant killers experience. It's this high death rate. And so for me, it's like I need a sensor that Can get me that historical data. And so I built the sensor. Because nothing existed on the market. And so, yeah.

Usually first thing, if I could buy it, but I did buy all the ones that existed and they didn't work right. They weren't very accurate. They weren't very precise. I'm sure a lot of the listeners here have experienced those type of products. Everything from the analog meters that can say they measured six different things and one all the way to some of the smart sensors.

Existing plant sensors just tell you what the current state is (and not very well) but then it's often too late to do anything about it.

But, you know, when you test it, you can literally Just do it at home, take that same sensor, put into Six different spots of your pot if you get six different readings, not a good sensor, right? So that's a big problem. So I designed my own and and the reason Was Precision Ag has this type of sensor but is incredibly expensive and you can't just buy it. You have to go through a whole sales process. And then finally they give you a quote and They're like, yeah, 600 bucks each. Yeah. And then it's just the Sensor in a with a wire. So I'm like, Oh, I have to like, build a device that can then, like, connect to that and then build another device, and then I can stream all the data and then it's like that points like I just must make my own like, what is this is crazy.

So we did that and then, and then so it's after like all this brainstorming of blockchain that Another co-founder, he just barely put in a new lawn and spent 30K and its dying and he's like, what The heck? Like, how come Irrigation systems are so square? Like, my lawn isn't square.

Like, Oh, this is dumb. And then he's like, How do these landscapers not know how to, like, set this up correctly yet? And I was like, because they don't know anything about plants. Yeah. And so the first idea of Krado then was like, oh, like I can Actually make a smart irrigation system where we put these sensors and they can tell then exactly which irrigation had to turn on and off. And so it's no longer the zone. Yeah, no longer the zone concept.

Dave:
I need that.

Eric:
So we did market research and this is now 2019. And no one wanted this product. So they're like, I'm not a robot my whole life. I'm like, This sounds like really expensive. And I was like, Yeah, there's a lot of parts to it, but you're going to want it. It's going to save a lot of water and that's coming Down your path.

Dave:
But so you tried that smart sprinkler systems and it's like, Oh, maybe the market's not perfectly ready for that?

Eric:
Yeah. So this is part of what building A business really entails, right? Is this upfront work? Yeah.

And this is my advice to anybody who's thinking about becoming an entrepreneur or building a business is this is the actually the cheapest part to validate your business idea. Right? And I know a lot Of people are afraid about talking about the Idea, but it's Like the more you talk about it The more you get feedback and then you understand like, are people willing to pay for this? If so, how much?

How big of a problem is this? And if the feedback is, I'd rather let my lawn die than drop two k on a sprinklers system. Then it's like, okay, then that's probably the reality. And we probably shouldn't go down this Road, right?

Validate your business idea as cheaply as possible before building anything.

Yeah, But that Is like to me The almost the funnest part of building a business, Because that can be done for $100,000 or less guaranteed, right?

For a Thousand dollars or less you can Validate a business idea that you had in a Dream or with your buddies. And within that amount and some, you know, three months of time, maybe even less, you'll know like this is viable or not. And that to me is like so awesome. There's no like, the risk is so low, right? And to me it's like the better you develop that The better you will be at building businesses because will start knowing what to measure.

Dave:
I love that. But I want to play devil's advocate for a second. So I'll push back. It's like I would I would have guessed that you would have to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to try and build sensors for a sprinkler system to get to the point to validate like where how it worked. So How did you specifically validate that and like, how does that fit into like the sub $1,000 kind of investment?

When you think about physical products are like, Oh, there's got to be money. It takes money to like prototype to build this or whatever. So how did you do it?

Eric:
I'm saying you Don't build anything, right? You do not build anything until the market says like, Oh, I would love that.

Dave:
And so with that to this point, It wasn't like you were building these sensors? You just started having lots of conversations with landscaping companies, with consumers, like how are you validating the idea?

Eric:
Everyone, Right. Everyone we thought would be Interested in this product, which I talked to and that was every blockchain idea, right? That's how we found out. Like, Oh yeah, this is the problem. Oh, title insurance, this is the problem. Oh, automotive, this is the bottlenecks, right? Yeah.

And it's not when you hit a Bottleneck to say like it's not going to work, it's is this a bottleneck that I think I can get Over and I solved it. Yeah. Do I have the Resources, Connections, Network, the knowledge to do this? If not, I'll pass and go to the next. Yeah.

And so with the smart irrigation system, the Bottleneck was okay, the market demand isn't really there. So we don't really know how big of a pain point this is for anyone, right now. Yeah. And then too, we don't really want to wait for that pain point to become a problem because that's just sitting around waiting. Yeah.

This is a lot of products. It's developed like you're saying, we have to develop a sensor to develop a new type of sprinkler that has to be now robust. And we have this wireless connectivity issue, we have this battery issue.

And so that's a lot of hardware to build. And so if anything, it was like, okay, well, either way, in order for this to exist, we have to work on the sensor.

So let's first focus on the sensor right? And so that's what we did was we first focused on the sensor and then we sort didn't really quite Know exactly which market to target, but we knew like, okay, the sensor at least solved my personal problem with understanding plants better.

Yeah. So then we went and

Dave:
Were you working on this with other people?

Eric:
Yes. So the other two co-founders Like they were with me since the blockchain days we were just in.

Dave:
Were they friends? Like how did you guys

Eric:
Yeah. So up to this point I Had a really hard time building good teams, right? And so every team prior to this I had, you know, I was in bands, I had other businesses and that was always the struggle. And this is what everyone talks about, like, how do you find good founding team members?

Yeah, the answer to that Today is you need a better network.

And if you if you're surrounded by a lot of creators and builders, it's actually very easy to get a good founding team because now you're surrounded by people who all get it and know what it takes and you know, all experience. But if You don't have that, then it is Like a guessing game and chance. And so for me it was, you know, one of them is a colleague. So he came from the biotech world with me. And so but that's the thing is we both love building, right? And so we would spend our time learning how to build anything from wood, anything. We would just always be coming up and building and showing off like, oh, this is a little thing I built today.

And then the third was actually an introduction from my father in law. So his colleague son came in and Really that one was just a you know, I'm really Open, or used to be more open to just giving everyone opportunities. And that one actually just worked out in our favor really well. That's all. It was like a Stroke of luck, right? Because you see, the Nation of network and luck on that. Because, you know, you get Other ones that just if right because like by this time now we've been working on this for a couple of years Right. And people lose their attention span or they're like my motivation has gone or my priorities have shifted. I don't want to waste my time doing this when I can be making passive income, doing something else.

Building great teams is hard.

Dave:
So after having all of these conversations, you come to the realization that like, okay, maybe the whole system, the market is not ready for and the sprinkler system and stuff, but you're at the point that you decided to focus on the sensor. Did you realize at that point that you're like, okay, the sensor is the right place to focus because it can solve my personal plant problem?

Or it's like, Well, if we were going to, you're still kind of focused on if we were going to do this big system. That's how, you know, that's where we'd have to start. And so if it's not that I'm curious, like at what point did it dawn on you? Like, oh, I can just stick this in my home plants and save like one plant at a time, kind of a concept.

Eric:
So that was, it was I did build the sensors, right, because I was solving my own problems so that part was already existing and alive and it solved my problem And my wife even saw that.

She's like, out of everything you build in this house, everything you thought about, she's like, I really think this is like the project you make. Yeah, She's like, I think you really need to focus on this one. I was like, Oh, that's got hardware. Like my app was barebones, right? You literally had to write in terminal Commands to, like, get things to work on there.

Dave:
You built it yourself?

Eric:
Yeah. It's a bare minimum, right? Like, even, like my sensors have, like, wires and stuff hanging. Just for me. I'm like, this is me. Just needs to do what I wanted to do. And that's all I care about, right? So ugly. Very ugly. Not user friendly.

Um, but what it Revealed was two things. So we did market validation and so the way you can do that very cheaply, like I was saying, is there's platforms that have a lot of people on there, like user interviews, a respondent that you can get access for very cheap, right? And so They're even If you like, there's, I want to say hack it, but there's like ways to get data For free. And so for us it was, I just set up a campaign on their respondent and I created a screener Forms called respondent.

Yeah. And it just gets you access to people that Talk to you. Right. Because that's the other bottleneck is your surrounded by family and friends and that's actually the worst people to get market validation from because your mom doesn't want to you know, make you feel bad and tell your idea sucks. So you need to talk to people who Don't know you. That will just be like, that is dumb.

Like, I think you should do this instead. Sorry on it. You put this idea out there, People go and respond. Because they get paid And can make like five bucks.

So the first part is you have to do a screener, right? You had to find the people that meet who you want to be talking To, who you think your target on.

Yeah. So this is what I'm saying. This is we can Get free data is our screener survey just had questions of like do you like Plants. Okay how many plans do you have? Okay. Do you start with plants?

Okay. What are the issues you have of plants? Got it. And then what have you done to, like, solve these issues? Right. And so from there and then I was like What's your title? What do you do for work? How old are you? Right? How much do you spend on plants like all this, all this screener survey Getting all the data For free right. And so Respondents there, they say like, hey, if you get 50 responses to any Campaign, that's like really good.

And on this Platform, we have three thousand responses. So already a market indicator like, okay, a lot of people care about plants. And not only that, a lot of people struggle with keeping their plants alive. And within my screener Survey, I already got a lot of that demographic psychographic information right off the bat, right?

Yeah, for free. I think we didn’t spend a dime at this point. And that's why I'm saying, like you could do market research for very, very cheap. Right. And from there I'm like, Oh great, these guys have used our competitors apps. Awesome. This is good because that means that didn't solve their problem, right?

Dave:
Who were your competitors?

Eric:
Like plant care apps. So a lot Of these like plant care apps that a lot of people use that have, you know, vision built in and they say like, hey, we'll take your take your picture of a sick plant and will automatically tell you what's wrong with it, or it doesn't work at all because It's too late. It doesn't know and knows this as much as you like. You'll leave means any of these things like I don't know. I don't have the data. So it's good to see that. Right? And it's good to see that not only it's good to see couple of things.

That they've tried your competitors products because that means they're actively trying to solve this problem and to that, they're spending money, right? So now it's like, okay.

And then you start seeing Different groups of people. So there are some people that spent thousands and thousands of dollars a year on plants, right? And there's some people that spent like five bucks a year on plants.

Yeah. And so we had this really good insights into like, okay. And then you can even see like who's spending $1,000 a year on plants and you're like, oh, they're like a doctor. Got it. They have higher salaries. And then you look at the age range, you're like, okay, So then we're like, okay, I think we have a good customer Profile right now. We like Older millennials that have higher paying income Jobs and they go crazy with plants right now. Yeah, and let's just talk to them, right? And so then we start talking to them. That's when I started paying, you know, five, $10 per interview. But here's the other trick you can do is You always say like, Hey, let's do a 15 minute interview.

I'll pay you five, ten bucks, which anyone's like, cool down. And then what happens is if they are The higher net worth individuals on respondent, like people who are doctors like they actually do spend time on there.

It's crazy right? The business owners because what I think much gives Them insights into maybe because there's even business people in there and like I don't know if you're on here to get money or you're here to like, get a read on what's trending.

Dave:
Yeah, Yeah. You're doing the reverse market research.

Eric:
Yeah. Um, but what's cool Was after our first round of interviews, we would then follow up and be like, Hey, like, I want to talk to you some more, dig deeper, happy to pay More for your time. And this is what they're like, Nah, I'm in. I'm in. Like, this is cool. I just wanna be part of this now. Like, happy to support you. So don't even worry about that.

Dave:
There is already a early emotional attachment to what you were trying to accomplish, correct?

Eric:
Yep. And so that market validation came In and then the other side was we started hunting for the data. Right? So right now Krado was, Oh, well, we're a plant care app with the plant sensor, we're consumer product, right? But when you now talk to you because that's not a very VC friendly type company, right? It doesn't have it has a lot of costs right now.

So, you know, like they're that's a lot less expensive. And not a lot of margins.

So at this point, we joined an accelerator. So this is when I finally quit my job, had enough money saved to give myself a Shot for three years. I was like, you know what? I'll try it three years if I fail, Jobs are always there.

Dave:
To live your current lifestyle three years were you, did you have a partner or spouse? You mentioned your wife. So you were together with your wife. Did she buy into this?

Eric:
She's been pushing me for years. Right? She's like, get out of this job. You, like, hate it. Like you're not going.

Dave:
And so, yeah, it was Good support. You had a three year runway of like, okay, this I can last for three years. Let's go for it then. What incubator did you jump in?

Eric:
So yeah, we jumped into An accelerator called Founder Institute, which is like pre idea really early. So it's earlier than Y combinator. Like, those guys want some traction, some sort of, uh, validation.

And founder Institute, It's early. Yeah. So all they do is you take, like a personality exam, you take an open intelligence exam, which is like pattern recognition, which is actually really cool test. And then you have an interview with them, right? And then if you get accepted, uh, it's, this is what's cool that's different than any other accelerator is other ones You get settled, you're you can stay in, right? Like you can code. You don't have to really do anything and you'll graduate.

But this one Is because you're so early they really want to put you through the ringer. So it's like almost like a Navy SEAL boot camp for accelerators. And so if you Underperform at any day Or during the week of the three or four month program, you get kicked out.

Dave:
Wow.

Eric:
Get kicked out of the program, right. You had to work and keep up. And so for me, that was my biggest imposter syndrome. Right, I'm a technical founder. My other co-founders are all technical, right? So none of us really had a business background or even access to a network of business people.

And so that's what Founder Institute was for us was to validate, like, can we do this? Do we have what it takes? And then to network right of if we do well.

So that's the other thing is they rank you. So it's not only do You get kicked out, but you get ranked. So you actually know exactly how well you're performing within your cohort. And so for us, COVID hit, we were part of The Silicon Valley. So they have a global presence. So they have places all over programs all over the world. Um, it's all virtual now, due to Covid.

Dave:
Traditionally it was in person?

Eric:
It was in person, yeah. In person in Silicon Valley. And you'd be there for four months, right? So even bigger commitment, which actually, Yeah, would be even better but whatever.

Yeah. So we did it remote and it came in you know, and I'm now with like 130 people started and I'm with people that have, Like business backgrounds. I'm like, what are you doing here? You know, like people from Wharton, Stanford, Harvard and MIT, Penn, you know, I'm like, Why are you here? Don't you know everything to know about business? Like, what do you do? Yeah, yeah. And and I beat all of them, right? So I ended up number one in the program.

Only 23 were left at the very end, right out of heart of 30. 23 ended up and I was number one and, and I was always told like, hey, if your top three doors open up for you because they're going to now. So within their portfolio they have a select portfolio, so they have a 2% portfolio that they now get access to like really deep network individuals that will really help move things along.

So I was like, I want to be part of that. That sounds awesome. And so I'm like, How do I be part of that? And I'm like, Yeah, be top three. And I'm like, okay, so yeah, number one. And then that happens. I was like, Awesome. And then so this is four months into my jumping Into the water right of light. Let's take the rest and do this. A month later We finish the program. And what the program really Teaches you is why how to think about your business critically. Financial modeling, how to talk about your business intelligently, so pitching and then Just really nailing product market fit and doing the things that Aren't sexy right like Financial modeling like talking to customers like that was part of the criteria like, hey, this we can't talk to a hundred customers. Yeah.

And then you go out and Do it right. How many people Want to do that? Right? Like you have to talk to a hundred People and next week they're like, No, you talk to 200 people.

Dave:
It's a good exercise. Yeah. I mean, especially for a creator, right? And I don't know, I mean, you seem like you have a very outgoing personality, but I would assume, stereotypically speaking, someone who is a scientist spends a lot of time in the lab and is very cerebral, like you are very intelligent talking, going out and talking to 100 people like on the street is like that's maybe like the worst thing that they could ever imagine doing.

Eric:
Yeah. So here's the hard the funny thing Is I was very introverted. I didn't know you could become extroverted. I didn't know that was a thing that can happen. Yeah. And so, yeah, exactly. I was like, that made me uncomfortable, right? I was never comfortable talking, presenting I could do it. And I had a good presence, but I was never, like, excited about it. Right?

Yeah. So it turns out you can learn, you can learn, you can adapt, right? We can get, we can grow, you know. And so I still have the very first pitch Video of the very first day because they made us do it. Yeah, I had that. And just within four months. I'm like, man Like, look how much growth happened in four Months. Like, oh my gosh.

Like, I you know, I was so awkward on the camera. Yeah. And that's and then so two Weeks after that, we are in A pitch competition here at Silicon Slopes and this is something that years before, I always wanted to do right Like I was jealous, not jealous, but I was admirable of I was like, Oh, this is so cool. Like, I want to be a company up there on stage pitching one day that's like.

This is the coolest thing ever. Yeah. And that was two years prior to me jumping Full time in, right? And then even then I was trying to meet these investors that people. You know, all these Bigwigs in the community. Yeah.

So here I am and I'm like, this is cool. Like I'm on that stage now two years later. And so this is awesome, this is exciting, right? And you know. My head's like, there's no way we're going to win. Like, we're pre-revenue. We're just an idea, right now. Yeah. One thing, I have my favors. I've been practicing this pitch for four months so, like, I could pitch. But at the same time, right before that competition. My pitch deck just got ripped apart by the last, like, round of feedback. And so it was like in shatters. And then we got accepted and something got lost in our calendar.

So I just got an email saying like, Hey, you're going to be here at 8 a.m. tomorrow. And I'm like, What? Like, I don't even know. I got accepted. Like, what?

Dave:
You're like, crap. My, my whole thing that I had, like, perfected. Yep. Is now just been like, yeah, I've grown apart. I'm starting over.

Eric:
So that whole Day, right? All the way until like, I think four in the morning we were working on the deck getting ready, and then I got so tired that I couldn't even, like, work on my pitch yet, right for the new deck.

And I was like, Oh, shit, show up early. I just need like, sleep a little bit, show up early. And then I'll work on it and we'll have it done right. I Show up, And of course, they're just like pulling us around, you know, connecting us.

All these people taking photos, doing all this stuff. And I was like, okay, I'm not really having time and then finally get sit down and they're like, Hey, Eric, you're up first. I'm like, Okay, I don't have any time. And it's I go up there and I pitch and and it was awesome. I actually delivered a really good pitch and I loved it because the Difference now was before it was really well rehearsed and memorized, right? Is almost robotic.

This one just from the gut, because I knew the material so well, so deeply. That didn't really matter that I changed the slide order or you know what the contents like I saw it. I was like, Oh yeah, I know exactly what I want to talk about for the Next 30 seconds on the slide, right? And so it Actually came out really natural, really confident and made me realize I'm like, Oh, it's actually better to just have like a high level overview of what you want to pitch about and then what comes out comes Out, right?

And so then that week they're like, Hey, um, I will select the next top ten and, and then you'll go to The next round, right? And I was like, That would be the coolest thing as of me Top ten, there's no way we're going to win but top ten. That's a validation of like We know we're talking about. Anyway, long story short, we end up winning the thing nice and in the I get a check and now my first check in Is from a V.C. that's giving me 250 K and I'm like, Whoa, Like this happened. I gave myself three years for this to happen. This happened in four months, like, ding, okay. And then that triggered this cascading effect where because it was so it was public, right?

I mean, so now everyone was hitting us up right before it was an idea that people like maybe and now they're like, hey, I want to give you some money. Like, this is really cool. All right? And so we got friends and family that started coming in. And then I went really quickly from no one to someone in the community right now, simply because of that one event where a lot of eyes are watching it.

But what we also did was after that, We actually won every pitch Competition that year. We swept the whole entire thing.

Dave:
How many Did you do?

Eric:
We did three. And we won every single one of them. And so they.

Dave:
All attached like prizes? Cash?

Eric:
Oh yeah. So we got, we got like, Yep. Cash.

We won all the business competitions we entered.

Eric:
And we're, it's flipped right. Because the other problem of building the network community now has come to me like now is someone that people want to talk to you right. That's like my LinkedIn presence. That's all within the last two years, right? I never use LinkedIn before and that everything I have, like I even when I finally was like, I'm going to grow my LinkedIn profile, I deleted everyone on there because essentially like an equivalent of my Facebook profile Was like friends of, you know, of like friends of family. Like, I'm like LinkedIn's, is like professional.

I really want people in the network to be a value add to me and other people, right? So I got rid of everyone and then. Now, like how many, I think have over A thousand connections now? And that all happened within two years, right? Like, that's a lot of people that you start, I'm talking With you...

Dave:
I think that's how I think a ton of my network is in that Silicon Slopes kind of network. And so I'm pretty sure that I first heard your name probably associated with that pitch competition and with being one of the finalists and winning or what. So that's probably where I first heard about it. And then as I started learning more about the product, I was like, Oh, this is like really cool.

I want to get to know this guy. I want to meet this guy and hear the story. So awesome. Okay, so you're going through like how this all came about, right? And and this almost it sounds like you were kind of surprised about this is a little easier than you thought. It might have been a three year plan.

You're like less than a year into it. You've already got some funding. You've got there's the team of three, right? Did you start adding people to the team right away or you like kept the team at three?

Eric:
So now we start building. Right now we need to get MVP out there. Now we need to figure out the way.

Dave:
I want to talk about on the pitch that you won, was it the consumer based sensor in like a personal plan? So at some point between going through the did the founder Institute help you kind of refine it down to that idea? And that's where you're like, okay, we're going after consumers. We're not we're going to ditch like the whole sprinkler system kind of concept, and we're going to like individual plant sensor kind of plant care.

Eric:
No. So we came in with That idea already. What it did, though, was it helped me create even

Dave:
Prior to Founder's?

Eric:
Of. Yes. Yeah. And then but It was still issues, right? Of like it was still very consumer heavy, expensive product and we did a lot of market validation.

Dave:
How much did you like think it was going to cost initially?

Eric:
Um, I mean we Knew where we had to be, so I didn't know how much is going to cost. I knew what I did start under. Yeah, right from our survey data was like, it has to be like cheaper than this or else we had no.

Dave:
Which was what?

Eric:
It had to be Less than 25 bucks.

Dave:
Wow. Okay, so you're building this new thing and the sensor and like, the chip...

Eric:
But we had a lot off the shelf components, and so already kind of have a Gauge with Just off shelf Components. We're at 40 bucks, right? It's on my. Okay, Like, if we made this in-house, it's. It's gotta be cheaper. Yeah. Easy. Right? So that wasn't too bad, but it was more the financial modeling of how do I get you a sensor in every plant and not just a sensor. Yeah, because that's not uses to me. And then really, right back to what I was saying about the VCR attractiveness, what it revealed was when we found out that the databases are empty, that's really when the light bulb in those like Oh, much valuable data and then the VCs like.

And so that's what we were talking about.

In the pitch of like how this can change the world and how we approach science and research and everything. And of course we kept Plant data,'

Dave:
For the global plant database or whatever, right?

Eric:
Yep. And, but you know, like I was, if you have recording, I'm sure the recordings still exist. If you watched Those two years ago, I was talking about this differently. And over time you just iterate and the more people talk to you, you keep refining and you're like That's a good point.

Like, how do we get past that? And then I'm now okay, Like this is how we can do it. You start exploring Other industries, right? Because the other thing is you timing, right, is right now like 2021 was the heyday. That was the pinnacle of everything. So a lot of money flowing. And then we hit a complete stall the next year and then it was like, that's part of business too, is you need to adapt.

If you can't adapt You won't survive. And that's all businesses is survive as long as you can. And if you do, you'll probably know the top.

Dave:
How much money did you raise like that first year with the competitions and some VC money?

Eric:
So we raised About 650.

Dave:
Okay, so 650 and with your three team of three, you're like, okay, we've got we got some significant runway, but we've got to add some more people to the team. So you're starting to scale burn.

Eric:
So we didn't add anyone, We hired contractors, right? So we hired an ID team, so they developed the new the product that looks today.

And this is all like, I'm learning right, I didn't even know what Industrial design meant. I'm like, What do you even do? So I learned and I was like, Oh, okay. Like, this is cool.

Good. And then, right. And then our UI of the UX had to update, so we had to hire someone to design all that. And then we had, right? So fortunately the CTO Max, he could develop and cause he coded all of it. At the time I had all my firmware coded on the sensor and then, you know, and then we passed that off to an actual engineering team that now is working on, right?

So once ID was designed, we knew what like, how it had to look and everything. Then we went to an Indian team and told them like, this is how,

Dave:
Did you find all these resources? Was it through your network? Was it through the VCs? Like did you have people that were introducing like, Hey, here's a great electrical engineering firm who's a great, uh, like industrial design firm?

Eric:
Yes, it was a mix of different probably like one of all of all the above. And that's actually where if you look back, we've Had a lot of mistakes and errors with hiring good people. And that's just a problem that I don't know how to solve yet because I still it's heart rate's hard to vet, especially if it's coming From someone who's referring it. And actually now the way, That is, if you will vouch for them with your blood, with your life, I will take that meeting and Consider working with them. Yeah, but if you've never worked with them and you just like, know who they are and your.

Did you see me like, No, thank you. Like, because that's not like, you know, I don't know how good they are, right? So we got really lucky with our industrial design team and they set actually a really high precedence because like, if Everyone's like this, This is going to be easy, right? Like I pay this and get this level of product like easy and then that was like the last good team
We ever hired.

Like even today we've had manufacturing delays for over six months because we chose the wrong contract manufacturer. Right? And that really, really hurt us. We chose like The wrong Web design team, right? Where something that should have taken one month ended up taking seven months. You know, and this is just Like we don't have infinite runway, we don't have the time and everything kind of connects to each other.

And so it's like it's frustrating, it's hard. But that's been the lesson this year. Like got to be patient. Yeah. And also you have to like, plan, right? So and it's Hard because the early days, if you don't know anything about this you've never done before, you can't because people even we had I even brought on an Hardware advisor very, very early on just to help prevent these type of mistakes.

And he would give me these time frames. I'm like, okay, that sounds good. And that's what we projected everything off of. And I'm like, Okay, next. Yeah, I'm like, Next time give me the worst case time frame because that's what I need to project Off of. Not the Ideal because I've yet to have anything meet the ideal Time frame. And so right, because if you do that and then we've seen companies in this space consumer tech.

Even CPG is still really hard, right? They have different problems. Um, go out of business because they just did not calculate. Right. Even established companies, right. This is actually why Pebble Watches went out of business was because they forecasted incorrectly and they thought they were going to sell way more than they did. And they were left with all this excess inventory that hurt them and they couldn't raise enough money to cover and then boom, gone. Right?

Dave:
It was crazy because it's such a cool product, right?

Eric:
Yeah. So yeah, like product market fit market demand and you're like, how would the business like that go out of business?

Dave:
How did that happen? Yeah.

Eric:
This happens all the time. And so that's actually something I Did early on because in founders too, we were told like, Hey, you shouldn't do hardware. It's really Hard. Yeah.

And today I would actually say like, yeah, hardware is incredibly hard.

Dave:
But if you get through it, it's a really good competitive Moat because of how freaking hard it is.

Eric:
Yeah. Um, And now it's like, you know It's got to pull them like, Oh Man, this is so rough. I don't think I'll do hardware again. I'm like, Oh, but I've learned so much that you're like, Now I Should do more hardware. Yeah, yeah.

Dave:
Yeah. That's a good point you've paid to learn.

Eric:
Yeah, exactly.

Dave:
Capitalize on that.

Eric:
Um, but at the time I was like, why does everyone keep saying that? Like, why does everyone like hardware to me? Makes sense. You need hardware in the world. You need something to interact with. You can't just be all digital.

Dave:
Yeah.

Eric:
And so I Did retrospectives, I started studying companies. I looked at Pebble and I would read the founder like, what happened? Right? And so that actually helped influence our business model of like, oh, forecasting is a really big problem. And you know, the latest company to be affected is Peloton, right where you see it.

And you can't predict any of this Stuff of like, oh COVID happened, market demand goes through the roof, They can't supply Or cover enough of it, but they're have a lot of money all of a sudden. So then they go and manufacture all of this.

And by the time it's all done, they're quality control slips, quality assurance slips. They're getting sued because people are getting hurt. And then by that time.

Dave:
The demand is.

Eric:
Gone, gone. And now they're just left whole and their stock tanks because they didn't know that the stock market was gonna do that either. Yeah. And so now they're Like hanging on to dear life.

Just to go like that happened within a year. Right. That's insane like, that's an insane pendulum Swing to be like Man, we have like billions of dollars right now to be like, Oh my Gosh, we're going to go out of business in like, three months. Yeah.

Dave:
Yeah. Okay. So you're rolling, but facing some challenges with a lot of these outsource partners are, um, I want to get into want to transition to at some point in this journey, whether it's post like Founders Institute or whatever, you started becoming super passion about this whole it's way, way bigger than just a product. It's a you became passionate about this cyberpunk versus solar punk like this is a global movement thing that you became almost kind of like religiously excited about, right?

How, how and where did that happen and where did you kind of be like this is way bigger than a single plant sensor. This is making the environment the world a better place. And even it kind of had maybe towards this, like how does this affect your mental health? Kind of like what is this? This is like a huge global thing that you're trying to participate in, right?

Eric:
Absolutely. So early on, we are focused about Sustainability, e-waste, right? Those are things I cared about as a consumer myself, right? I just hate to have tech products that are in my attic that I have nothing to I can't do anything with because they're worth nothing. But I don't want to throw it away because it is worth something and that doesn't belong in the landfill. So we want to sell that immediately.

But yeah, we didn't realize how big plants were or how Big the impact was or how disconnected everything was. As we talked, more dug in deeper and you start seeing all these cracks in the foundation right everywhere. And then it starts to be and it becomes really clear, right?

So plants, yeah. Starts off as something like you think of like as an esthetic plant or gives me food. But they do way more than that. You can link it all the way to your health And then you realize like Who controls our moods? It's not our brain, It's our gut.

What is controlling our gut? Bacteria, where does that bacteria come from? Oh, the dirt that my food comes from. Oh, well, then that's really important, right? And so now if I'm eating food that's been nuked with glyphosate and All these other compounds that make the earth dead, I'm probably not getting the right bacteria in my gut anymore. And then even the Probiotics, They don't even know what the best combination is, right?

The only real Connection is like it comes from the dirt. And so now That doesn't contain what I have. And you look at like, How's everyone feeling? It's like, well, we're living longer, but I'm Not feeling really good. And now you're seeing chronic illnesses, mental illnesses, and you're like, I think this is all you see. The patterns are you like, this is all connected well.

Dave:
And so you started becoming very passionate about how all of these things were connected, given your, like biology or biology and microbiology kind of background. And you're like, hey, this is this is going to become really, really important. And here's a way that we can contribute to I mean, it's cliche to say, but making the world a better place, right?

Eric:
Yeah, exactly. So, uh, you know, my younger self, my twenties, I chased money, right? Like everyone does, and then I had access to it, and then I found myself Consuming My time buying things and hoping to fill some void in myself. Right to like that happiness. And the more I made, the more I bought and the more that void kept growing, honestly.

And so I got to a point where I kind of sat back, And realized like, this was kind of That pivotal Moment when I was like, I can jump at it Krado Because I don't need to spend so much money because I really don't need all this stuff, right? And I actually offloaded a lot of stuff. So like, yeah, I have a recording studio. I'm really into music. I have a lot music Equipment or to even more, but right, like so as a 20 year old, you would love to have like the best premium. Gibson Les Paul Like the Fender Strats, all The name brand, right? Like, who wouldn't? Right?

And then I bought all of them. And then I was so afraid to use them because they were so freaking expensive and so I wouldn't even play them. And then you couldn't even display them because that would be the case in order like I couldn't humidify my apartment at home at the time. And so there's the case. Yeah, sight unseen, and then even touch them.

And then I just have cases of them in my closet and I'm like, men what? I do. Yeah. And then what? I was like, What am I playing? And I'm playing my dinky Old cheap guitar, right? The one that I'm like, I don't care about this Thing, But I'm like, This is like, what do I what I get fulfillment from is that looking at a case of a guitar that's in it and saying like, Hey, I own that, but I'd never touch it, or like just playing music and creating, right? Yeah. So that was the connection.

I was like, Oh, it's the latter. It's playing music and creating and so all this other stuff is valueless to me. So like, get rid of it, right? It's actually just creating more stress and anxiety every time I think about it.

Dave:
Yeah.

Eric:
And so that, that pivotal change then changed how I saw other Things in life of like, okay, you really can't pursue anything new with the intention of just making money. If you do do that, you can. But what you'll find out is when you talk about resiliency, grit, perseverance, stress, anxiety, handling, all the hard stuff coming your way, money is not enough. And you hear this from everyone, right? Is not enough to push you through it.

You really can't pursue anything new with the intention of just making money. If you do do that, what you'll find out is when you talk about resiliency, grit, perseverance, stress, anxiety, handling, all the hard stuff coming your way, money is not enough.

Dave:
Right now you're starting to realize, okay, I there's a I'm pursuing a purpose. And yes, you want to have a profitable business. I mean, there's the famous, like no money, no mission, right? You've got you've got to be able to, like, fund your your pursuit, your mission. But now you're going at this thing with this incredible amount of passion for solving global problems, both of the environment, plant health, plant knowledge and the sharing of plant knowledge and the mental health of people and the connection that we have to our bio environment.

And that is the juice that you need to get through, like all of the setbacks and the frustrations and, um, yeah, all the, all the tough stuff about bringing an idea to life and being an entrepreneur.

Eric:
So right when you're trying to bring something new to the world, it's hard. It's just harder. You're going to hear a lot of naysayers, you're going to hear a lot of negativity, you're going to hear a lot of people saying It's stupid. You're going to hear a lot of people saying, I don't think this is going to do anything.

A lot of just negative energy. Right. Saying like a yeah, you you have to look internally and you need to come with that energy to combat that or you will succumb to it. Right? But here's the cool Thing that happens when you have a mission and purpose driven company is, you Know, you hear a lot of people talking about Retaining talent. Yeah, hiring talent. Yeah. Building community, all that and how to do it and all that and hear the tricks, do all that and I'm over here. Be like, it's actually pretty easy if you just have it Because I don't need to Go to you and be like, Here's our culture. Memorize this.

Yeah, get into your head, believe in it, become it, right? And every day I'm going to keep telling you like you need to be this. This is who you are at this company. But it's Completely Different if you're come to me being like, I believe in everything you're talking about, I want to be a part of it.

Dave:
Yeah.

Eric:
Then it's Like,

Dave:
I Already subscribe to this. I feel at home here. This is my community. This is my tribe. That's how you build an amazing team. Rather than trying to brainwash five core values and shove that down somebodies throat.

Eric:
Right. Because when it gets tough, what happens? People leave. Yeah, right now we've gone through a lot Of tough stuff together, right? And all the students bring us closer together. And no part of my mind is like, anyone is going to leave because it's tough. Because right now everyone's like, No, this needs to exist. We have to be the ones that brings us into reality, right?

So we have six people.

Dave:
Okay, so it grew from the core 3 to 6, and you use a lot of like contractors outsource whatever to do a lot of that stuff, which I kind of like. I'm more of a fan of like small, nimble, but but incredibly Navy SEAL team, kind of like we'll Die Together two teams rather than hundreds of employees because to your point is I mean I don't want to see all almost impossible because there are big organizations who have incredibly an impressively accomplished this but it's almost impossible to get past I don't know, 50 people even or even 100 people for everyone to be bought in at that like passionate level.

Dave:
Right? Because at some point there's enough jobs that need to be filled that it's just a job for them.

Eric:
Right.

Dave:
I think that's a good mindset and it's good for us to talk about that is small, nimble, highly passionate, really motivated teams. And it's I don't think it's well, I think it is related, actually, but I think it's way it's a for me, it's a lot more enjoyable way to do business. Right. It's sort of these these highly motivated people that are just as passionate about you, about accomplishing something.

And time after time we've seen companies do amazing things with like very, very small, nimble teams. You had this really amazing kind of passionate ex explanation or exposé or whatever about the cyberpunk solar punk kind of a thing. So talk to me a little bit about that.

Eric:
Yeah. So you know, everything some everyone Should keep in mind, right? Is yin and yang always exist together? There has to. And so yeah, we you've all seen examples of what a cyberpunk features look like, right? We have Blade Runner, we have crypto that was that cyberpunk that was like the game I wanted to literally call cyberpunk. We have a lot story, we have a lot of books, we have a lot of content on that future.

So we know very clearly what that esthetic and that future looks like. Right? And when you sit down to think about it, it's not a good future, it's a dystopia, right? That's kind of what all of this content is trying to warn you about is like, hey, like this is what it looks like. Don't keep going down this road, right? Unless you want to live in this world. If that's it, then like, okay, like this is what it's going To look like and it's not great, but the counter to it is a Solarpunk, right? And so a cyberpunk is really. Yeah. Like you described, a very autonomous AI driven humans are kind of just there, but without purpose anymore. The planet has been completely destroyed to a point of no recovery. We're looking ways for escape, right? Either in a virtual world or to an off planet. But we we messed up.

We screwed it up. And. Right. We have, like, horrible air, like fire season and all of these things that's already Coming up laughing.

Dave:
About. Yeah, there's a thing called fire season now! For my grandparents, it wasn't even a thing, but now we've got a thing that's called...

Eric:
Fire wasn't thing in our life so crazy, right? Like it wasn't a thing for us. And now that we Are used to it and people Are just like, Oh, yeah, this is Normal. It's like, oh my gosh, like, this is bad. This is really bad.

We are building a cyberpunk future, but we should be building a solarpunk future.

So solar punk is really. Yeah. Kind of back to your point with Avatar is like it's a future where we're living harmoniously with nature. We've reconnected ourself and reimplement ourselves into the ecosystem. We're back in balance. So we're no longer just taking, taking, taking, but we're taking what we need and then adding and replacing what we took. Right? And so like I hear all the time of the smart cities, right?

Like the point, for example, is going to be this smart community. And when I talk to the people behind it, it's like, there's nothing smart about this. It should just be called a connected community, but it's just connected to the Internet. That's all that you've done, right? But when you look at the designs, like plants aren't part of the design integration, right?

They're exterior plants, but they're not designed other than esthetics. Right. But like, these plants could be doing a purpose. The new buildings should all have greenhouses built into them. Right? That takes in the extra heat, reuses the water. Right. Talking about water in Utah. And it blows my mind that we use fresh water once and then we throw it away.

And so, yeah, so long future. It Really is Just a future where we need. So the way we can create this Future is I can't do it myself. I need more people, all the listeners, I need you guys to Create content, right?

So if any of you haven't heard before, that's a problem. Like we've all heard cyberpunk. How come we haven't heard heard Solarpunk?

Dave:
Problem is that everyone's heard of cyberpunk and nobody's really heard the term solarpunk. We're not using it because it's in the popular culture.

Eric:
Yeah, we're not creating content for it. We're not. I want people to write Stories about it, I want people to create Video games about it. I want people to create content on it. Right? Because we need to show people like there is another side to this. It's not just this doom and gloom. There's this other side and no one's creating content for it because no one really knows about it. But the Second we do That, then everyone understands like Oh, and then now we can create companies that are starting to build products that the people are writing about, right? Like the Sci-Fi writers. That's where a lot of inspiration comes from me. I'm like, You don't Need to really sit here and come up with a you won't you won't come up with a whole new novel idea.

If you want inspiration, just read sci fi, And be like, How Can I bring nanobots to the world? Like one of like, how am I going to do that?

And what's cool is that I'm part of the wave and I want everyone who's listening do be part of the way, right? We're making it happen. So that's what's cool about something that doesn't exist means that we have the opportunity to define it now and create it, right? And so, yeah, exactly. Like I'm seeing like my nephews, you know, my sister in law is a school counselor, and she's always telling me, like our main kids are like, so depressed, suicidal, they're addicted to alcohol and nicotine already.

And I'm like, help her. And she's like ten. I'm like, what? Like, Yeah.

Dave:
Like you're ten.

Eric:
You've been on this world for ten years and you're like, this miserable already. Like, Oh my gosh, Yeah. And I get it right because you look at social media, you hear the parents, right? And everyone has that same Negative energy that's coming in. So yeah, I would feel that way if that's all I'm getting. And so we need to create this other type of content and I'm part of it. And that's the cool thing is we're connected. That's why I have so much purpose and passion about this is the more founders I meet, the other, you know, other creators, builders, we're all aligned on this.

And so now we're forming more and more companies that are like, okay, like how do we want to do this? How do I? And so when you think about like, oh, all these big events that happened in our history, you know, and you look like, oh, these are the core people involved.

Eric:
This is it. This is happening right Now, right? And I can't do this alone. Like I need everyone to be a part of this. And that's kind of like what's so-called buy this podcast is, is a part of it now.

But when I go into someone's Home and I see a very big collection of plants that I'm like, Wow, this is like not only the amount of time, energy like it. This took a lot of effort, right? This to me is really cool, right? I just barely finished a planted aquarium. That's a 100% self-sustaining aquarium. So it has Freshwater plants, has an axolotl in it.

And it has ghost shrimp and everything is imbalanced to the point where, again, I'm no longer needed. Right? Well, I if I get involved, it breaks the system, so I should just stay away from it and just refill the tank whenever it needs it. That's it. That's all it does.

Dave:
It doesn't require any power?

Eric:
It requires power. So it has like a filter and everything. Yeah, It needs power, but it doesn't Need me to change water out weekly. It doesn't need me to constantly add additives to rebalance whatever it like. It's balanced, right? So the bacteria is consuming all the waste from the animals. The and then that creates food for the plants
And the Plants are generating algae and in the ocean, all the algae and then the.

Dave:
The plants and all the animals in there are they will they have multiple generations like you won't have to like keep buying more?

Eric:
Yeah. So that's exactly what I'm trying to get the top. Yeah. That's what I'm trying To get right now is establishing the ghost shrimp colony right to the point where it's surpassing the axolotls consumption and then that and then within that ecosystem, there's places for them to breed.

But that just shows like how Beautiful a balanced ecosystem is. It really doesn't revive or require that much energy or all this like tinkering. It's self balanced. And that's really if you now think of it at a macro level, that's all you have to do with the planet is rebalance it, right? You can keep burning trees down. You keep killing the coral reefs like you keep getting rid of the mangroves.

Like I was just talking to people in Florida and they're like, Oh yeah, because I was like algae, like a huge problem there. Yeah it is. And I'm like, What happened there? Like they cut down all the mangroves and I'm like, Why? And they're like property.

Dave:
To Build a parking lot, right?

Eric:
Yeah, yeah. And then they're like, in Costa Rica, they Like, understand this very well. And so they keep all that. And guess what? Algae is not a problem for them. And I'm like, hmm, interesting. Like, and now as I get there's some company out there trying to solve this algae problem and they're going to make this hey fancy tech solution that this machine will like suck it all out and do all this and just like, just protect the mangroves. Yeah. Get rid of that parking. Come on.

Dave:
Maybe what we can end up on is, you know, in the brand, sweat and tears, kind of this whole concept is the emotional and psychological journey of being a founder. What has that been like for you?

Eric:
Yeah, Yeah, definitely. Having your spouse support is and I mean, she's part of the company now, so like, that's how deep we're in this together, right? So yeah, that, that is huge. But yeah, I mean sometimes it feels like, you know, you hear this from other founders, like you are staring in an abyss, right? You're just like, man, like, am I Off On this? Like, I'm just getting so many no's from VCs is like, I get all this other validation from people, but like, no one's putting the money in. So like, how are we going to make this happen? You know? And so, yeah, you can really easily become negative about it and talk yourself out of it very quickly, right?

That's a choice. But that's the thing is that's a choice You can choose to have those thoughts and you can choose to spend energy on those thoughts and you can choose to make that a reality or you can choose the other. Like, Well, what if this works? What if we accomplished this?

What was like, What if we make this happen right? Then that to me is like, that's where the energy in feel comes from because it's like, Oh man, this would be huge. It would change everything. This would be monumental.

Dave:
What if?

Eric:
Yeah, Yeah. And that's why I tell a lot of People is like, just focus on the what have positives, right? Like, especially if you're fundraising and you're raising money for your company. I hear so many people like what if I don't raise and say, Oh yeah, like You're done then, right? Or is that truly The reality is like, would you really be done if you can't raise this much? Or like, what If you just raised 25,000 more?

How much more runway? get you couple of months? Okay, then that's a new problem in two months, right? Get 25,000 and then the next two months like try and get, you know, same thing again. Right. If you can get 25,000 every two months, is that enough to keep you going to a certain critical point where you can get more. Right. And so anyway, but you talk to a lot of Founders, a lot of builders and the the pattern in the stories are always the same, right? They're like, no one believed me all of these years. That was the dumbest company. And then now today you're like, Well, you're doing $1 million in revenue. You're a unicorn. You're, you know, you just sold for $1,000,000,000 and you're saying like no one believes in you.

Like, Yep. And that's to the point where I'm like, that's just how it is. That's how it is. Yeah, that's like almost like the trial of like, do you have what it takes? If you can get through this, Then you will become like the legendary now. Right. And if you can't, then this is not meant for you. And so a lot of the emotion anxiety is just handling That, right? It's a lot of framing of perspective and how you want to work on it in your mind. And so it does require a lot of self-awareness and introspection. And so you want to work, you have to work in yourself.

And so that's actually what I did was last, right? Because, like, this is a really weird time to be building a company, right? 2021 was a Heyday anyone could raise millions and millions dollars.

2022 not so great. People said 2023 things should get better. It's getting worse now, like 2024 will get better? I'm like, who knows? We'll see. So this is like we don't know, right? There's so much Happening right now in the entire economy, entire with people, everything that's like Such influx And so all I can do, like so I have no Touch until, like, what the future could be, right? So all I have now is like, what can I do and control now?

And that's actually the tip and trick. Like if you meet mindset Coaches, if you meet spiritual people, if you meet pro athletes, if you meet anyone that's at a very high level of stress within their like job and profession, they tell you like, yeah, you got to like focus on the now if you focus on the future, you're in for a lot of anxiety because you can't control anything. The future and the Focus on the past. You're going to be depressed because yeah, you've made mistakes. You had to learn. And that's the also the other thing is the word.

You choose how you feel, right? In order to learn, you have to make mistakes or fail, right? So that to me is just what I call learning.

Dave:
That's just learning.

Eric:
Yeah. Not making a mistake and like to, you know, like bad means, like the good exists or you have like There's good, there's bad, right? And success means there's failure, right? So if you use any of those words, then there's the opposite that exists. And so you're already setting yourself up for One or the other of those scenarios.

And when you do that, it makes it like it's one or the other, right? And so you don't have to be in that state. Instead, you can choose to say like, Oh, I'm going to do like I'm just going to do my best.

Yeah, if you do that And really, then that's like then you, you did your best Was so when you look back, like I couldn't Have done any more with what I knew at the time or what I had available to me right now. Yeah, I've learned so I can do things a bit differently.

And so yeah, for last year We fundraised And we raised money. And not only that, we went up in valuation, which everyone else is doing the opposite, right? And this year we need to raise again and we're going to go up in valuation again. And there's a lot even more headwinds, right?

And it's Even harder, right, because now even the VCs Are starting to collapse. Right? With CBN, all the things that happens like Okay, but to me it's like, well, we made it last year, we're going to try and make again this year and the next year we'll deal with whatever problems come, you know, Like that's the thing is you're always going to have problems Coming your way. That's, that's a guarantee, right? It's more about how you choose to handle those problems when they come and how you respond to them. And if you're going to let destroy your day, destroy your we destroy your much story everything. Or if you're Going just be like, you know, this Is just the process. Yeah. And like, every week I'm like, I'm sure we'll have problems this week.

Dave:
But I think the joy and the passion can be found, like you said in the process, if that's your your attitude right.

Eric:
Well, that's Where all the joy is, right? Like the joy isn't the end point. Right. The end point is what you sold the company or you went public. Right. Like there's plenty of founders. I know that went public and are dealing with a lot more headaches of going public, right? Yeah, right. And so they in their head, they're like, we hit the goal.

Find your passion in the process. Don't just live for the outcome.

But like I'm still dealing with the same set of problems I deal with normally just even bigger. And so that is it, right? And so I always Attribute it to like anything you do outdoor right, because outdoor stuff kind of brings us out at a more small scale. So like hiking, climbing or doing anything really hard outdoors, right? And that's where it triggers this psychology, right? If you're summiting Mount Olympus, for example.

It's a hard mountain to summit and you're going to be questioning me like, Man, my body Hurts. Why am I doing this right? If your whole thing is just I just want to get a top, It's not enough for you to get to the Top, right? Because it's just going to get Steeper and harder and harder, and you're going to get more and more tired to the point where you're like, It's not worth it.

But if you're, like, enjoying the process of like, man, like, look how far it has come since that one thought I had about, like, how hard it is. And then you make it like these micro accomplishments. All of a sudden you just find yourself at the top and you're like Oh dang, like, here I am. And I actually enjoyed it.

Dave:
These amazing flowers or this crazy mountain goat. I've seen stuff. It's this whole the whole experience along the way, right?

Eric:
And that's life. That's really like life, right? If your whole thing is just like the goal of, again, like being famous, being rich, having whatever, right. Anything that it's like, it's it's not going to happen, actually, because your mind's already there in the future and you're not even enjoying or working through anything that's happening like now.

And that's where all the magic,

Dave:
Even if you get it, it's not going to provide the the feedback, you know, you're not going to feel the way that you thought you were going to feel. When you get to that point.

Eric:
Because if that's the case, then anyone who's had An exit, why would they build another company? Yeah, right. And instead they're like, I'm Going to.

Dave:
Do something.

Eric:
Yeah, I'm going to go build again. Right? And that's the phase they love being in. Like this letter phase is like the boring part. It's this pace, like figuring it all out, having all the odds against you, like just thinking in iterating and working through things. And that to me is like, yeah, that's the best part to be in because you're bringing in like to me, the way I think of it now is like an idea chose you.

Yeah, and you're the individual that it chose to like try to bring this into reality. Let's see if you could do it.

Dave:
Yeah. So cool. Eric, you're awesome. This is so cool. It's been, I mean, really kind of mind blowing, this whole conversation. How do people find you? How do people. It's krado.com? Krado.co.

Eric:
.co, Krado.co

Dave:
Yeah. Okay. So can they just order the system right now? It's ready to go? I can buy plants right now?

Eric:
We're getting caught up on our orders.

So if you order now, you'll, you'll have a couple of months delay. But yeah, we finally stabilize manufacturing or shipping.

Dave:
Okay. So there'll be a few months delay if I ordered today, but I want to get some, see if my wife and I can actually become plants caretakers instead of killers, plant murders. Where else can they find you? Like, where do you connect with people on social media?

Eric:
So if you want...

Dave:
For your passionate movement?

Eric:
So the only social media platform I'm Active on is LinkedIn and I'm always welcome to message me on there and I always make time to talk to other people that want to create something and help give you any advice or guidance I can offer. But if you really want to be involved, we have a meetup group called Utah Houseplant Enthusiasts Join that one is part of this community effort that we're growing and it's grown organically, actually, really quickly.

So we are we want to have more and more people involved and to the point where I'm trying to create a self-sustaining community and I'm no longer needed. Right. And You guys are all the ones growing and spreading these ideas and concepts.

Dave:
Where do they find the community on Meetup? Okay. Oh, one thing I forgot to ask. Maybe I assumed, but just for clarification, the sensor is outdoor as well, so you can use it in the garden. Or is it mainly indoor right now?

Eric:
It's mainly indoor right now. Our outdoor model will be ready this year.

Dave:
Okay, so there will be ones that I can use in the garden outdoor plant.

Eric:
And that's what's cool about our Membership program is if the sensors are there just part of the subscription. So once we have the outdoor ones ready to use, let us know how many you want to sort out and you don't pay anything to do that.

Dave:
Cool. So cool. Thanks, man.

Eric:
Thank you.

Dave:
Appreciate it.